What do Wu members have against Wu management (Divine, Power, Mook, etc)?

Anyone know exactly how the Wu was managed then vs now? And what are members mad about? I know U-God was pissed once that it cost tons of money to put the "W" on his album cover and he thought they watered down the group by signing so many Killa Beez. Rae has said Divine is a snake and the main reason he doesn't want to do group projects besides live shows. I know the Wu wear deal pissed off members and they didn't see any money from it. Deck said on Vlad that Meth & RZA switched to Hollywood because music business is so dirty and inconsistent and Deck blamed Wu's management for the group not working together often.

From my perspective, it seems RZA and Wu management wanted to get better solo deals for themselves and everyone else after their bad deals as Genius and Prince Rakeem. So they took a bad group deal and didn't help other members get good deals, just big deals that RZA and Wu management ate off of. Seems RZA knows its fucked up and tries to take care of members as much as he can but also doesn't mind his family taking the lion's share because it is essentially his group.

Does anyone know ODB's story? Why he didn't want the Wu on "Nigga Please" and why he got his own separate management after it. It looks like Wu mismanaged him and he blew the giant advance he got for it and made nothing off its huge success like his cousins probably did. I've heard people say ODB was just out of control high and pushing Wu away but Ghost, Rae & Meth copied him by trying to get away from Wu management and not repping Wu Tang. I think ODB kept the Wu features off NP because he didn't want to pay anymore than he had to after getting star producers and big marketing, etc. I also think Wu management let him get away with missing shows and things because they were family & he was more successful and that pissed off other members who were making shows and trying to blow up.

Variety of reasons. Ie rae catching power stealing

but id assume thr major issue is the clans success gave all of the management a way to put on artists. So theyd sign a whole buncha c and d list emcees and gave them life based off the wu name. They prolly didnt evrn pay these artists , so they were just plugged in for being cheap and in the end, it hurt the overall brand in making the money.


wu tang records
razorsharp
protect ya neck records
digital records
36 records. Etc

most of these labels exceot rwzorsharp n wutang records were just side checks in the pocket for them all. They made money, but hurt the bugger brand by associating all those wannabe artists with wu.

and im not talking about vintage killer bees ala sunz and killarmy. Talking about the dradly venoms, mmo, wu syndicates of the world. They werent bad. Syndicate had a dope album too. But calling them wu causes brand contusion which hurt the main 10.

U-God and Meth have talked about that but that happened about 20 years ago. The group is mad now about management's recent dealings and contracts. RZA and Wu management do make bank today off all these Wu fam jabronis tho.

Well, tbh i could understand both sides.
I’ve heard Rae, Meth talking about Divine.
But, if we see it from the business side i bet they were spending too much money at the time they were building their brand.
Remember that ODB doc made by his cousin Raison, Divine was talking about how his aunt and Dirty fking business up signing with Roc-a-fella.
It sucks that Inspectah Deck never got the shine he deserved, but was also his fault in some ways too.
It hurt them individually and also hurt the brand as a whole

its really simple. the music business is really brutal. unless you got merch and get alot of show, you are gonna be left in the dust broke. the lions share of sales usually goes to the management. it can leave a sour taste in your mouth

Very true, if you want to make it in the world of rap, you have to do pretty much any thing else except rap. The artist is ALWAYS the last person to get paid. Better off just learning to be a recording engineer and cross over into music production from there

y'all are talking newer 360 deals where bigger labels take almost all the profit from artists. but the Wu existed before then and GZA and RZA rapped about labels raping artists early on.

most artists' management do everything to NOT let the labels rape them. Dirty had his own manager when he signed with Roc-a-fella, so obviously he didn't like Wu management and it seems most have left them too. Wu management only manages random Killa Beez and the group projects/tours. the solo members have their own management now, which explains Meth acting more than rapping.

it seems the solo Wu generals are unhappy with how much management still get and how bad they were at business in the Wu's heyday.

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

y'all are talking newer 360 deals where bigger labels take almost all the profit from artists. but the Wu existed before then and GZA and RZA rapped about labels raping artists early on.

most artists' management do everything to NOT let the labels rape them. Dirty had his own manager when he signed with Roc-a-fella, so obviously he didn't like Wu management and it seems most have left them too. Wu management only manages random Killa Beez and the group projects/tours. the solo members have their own management now, which explains Meth acting more than rapping.

it seems the solo Wu generals are unhappy with how much management still get and how bad they were at business in the Wu's heyday.

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Wrong. If that were the case they wouldn't be complaining like they used to. In my opinion it goes both ways. First of all the industry is definitely setup for the Artist to get the least amount of money. As an artist you have to do your best to manage your money properly and expand your brand. Alot of Wu members were not really doing this until basically after 8 Diagrams. But even then they were still depending on the Indie labels. I think Raekwon was the first one to really understand how this shit works. That Run he went on after 8 Diagrams up until Shaolin vs Wu-Tang was great for him. He was an owner and started selling his own Merch. He was eating great around that time. Most of the other clan members still don't have a feel for the independent game, be over charging for everything lol

Don’t kid yourself bro, 360 deals were here way before hip hop, infact some of the deals were even worse than a 360. A lot of black musicians especially who weren’t educated in the music business were usually left penniless and without ownership of their content , I’d argue that back then the deals were more draconian than even a 360. Even one of the biggest artists out there Elvis, suffered from horrible deal practices and the lions share paradox . So it stands to reason that wu ain’t no different , it’s even worse when there are 9 men involved making the money that a solo artist would make with one album and having to spread the share of those innings , then there are label costs, A&r costs, Rza for instance as the primary producer would probably get more as he incurs sampling costs etc.

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Originally Posted by Hollow Dartz

Wrong. If that were the case they wouldn't be complaining like they used to. In my opinion it goes both ways. First of all the industry is definitely setup for the Artist to get the least amount of money. As an artist you have to do your best to manage your money properly and expand your brand. Alot of Wu members were not really doing this until basically after 8 Diagrams. But even then they were still depending on the Indie labels. I think Raekwon was the first one to really understand how this shit works. That Run he went on after 8 Diagrams up until Shaolin vs Wu-Tang was great for him. He was an owner and started selling his own Merch. He was eating great around that time. Most of the other clan members still don't have a feel for the independent game, be over charging for everything lol

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so your silly ass is agreeing with everything i said. and more members were on indie labels since the early 00s. Rae, Ghost and Meth learned how not to get pimped from negative experiences on big labels. their issues with Wu management is about the GROUP albums and shows. they've said that 1000 times.

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Originally Posted by RADIOACTIVE MAN

Don’t kid yourself bro, 360 deals were here way before hip hop, infact some of the deals were even worse than a 360. A lot of black musicians especially who weren’t educated in the music business were usually left penniless and without ownership of their content , I’d argue that back then the deals were more draconian than even a 360. Even one of the biggest artists out there Elvis, suffered from horrible deal practices and the lions share paradox . So it stands to reason that wu ain’t no different , it’s even worse when there are 9 men involved making the money that a solo artist would make with one album and having to spread the share of those innings , then there are label costs, A&r costs, Rza for instance as the primary producer would probably get more as he incurs sampling costs etc.

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true, there were bad deals but its bullshit to say most or top artists had it worse than 360s. labels didn't take merch or show money as a general rule and the Wu would've found ways around this because they had so many solo deals. Wu's issue is RZA (knowing how labels can pimp artists) started doing similar to other members and Killa Beez through management and treating it almost like an independent label. Wu management were sorry middle men unlike most big management teams. Deck has said his issue isn't with having them as managers but they were amateur because they're RZA's family. they get personal feelings involved and RZA would let them get away with being lazy and overpaid.

Wu’s issue is that they didn’t all individually have representation/ lawyers to actually negotiate deals based on the individuals interests . You do have a point about Rza, he handled most of that but even he wasn’t that culpable, there was a heirachy even above him that flourished off these men. If you know. You know .

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Originally Posted by RADIOACTIVE MAN

Wu’s issue is that they didn’t all individually have representation/ lawyers to actually negotiate deals based on the individuals interests . You do have a point about Rza, he handled most of that but even he wasn’t that culpable, there was a heirachy even above him that flourished off these men. If you know. You know .

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Yeah, I shouldn't make it sound like RZA took advantage of his fellow group members (even tho some feel that way) but he sides with his family/management over his boys. And the management logically looked out for RZA 1st, GZA and ODB next and everyone else last unless they were profitable.

Which if i were to play devils advocate makes sense . In all honesty , it would make sense for especially Rza and gza to handle the business and get priority over everyone else being that they were already established in the business before everyone else. They had deals and reputations curated before anyone even knew who the other members were so one could argue that all these gentlemen even getting a path into the business was because of Rza and gza which actually is fact.

Yeah, but no one was checking for either guy. RZA's production would never become famous without the rapping of all these cats. And GZA's great and taught a lot of these guys how to rap (ODB taught them how to perform) but they needed these rough hood guys to legitimize their image as grimy hardcore rappers. GZA and RZA weren't real thugs or appealing to the mainstream. ODB was and was the real star of the group.

Those 2 deserve creative leadership and the extra money that comes with that, but the group and each album is held up by everyone pretty equally. But I don't think the problem has ever been getting compensated. Its which members get favoritism and business opportunities. Because there's always been a hierarchy.

Wu Tang were originally just all grimy tough neighborhood cats who were show posse for "All in Together Now" (RZA, GZA & ODB). It wasn't even the other 6 members. Thats why they refer to Wu Tang as a family and like 100 guys. People like Deck, Cappa and Meth were just rappers RZA was friendly with because he was a producer and befriended cats who could rap. The only ones he had deep friendships with are Rae and Ghost partly because they had money, who didn't bond until the rap group formed.

So U-God, Deck & Masta Killa have always been treated like 3rd string by RZA just because he's least personal with them. Which is a shame because Deck is maybe the #1 MC in the group and U-God deserved more spotlight but he was really just Meth and Rae's rhyme partner. Meth, Rae & Ghost are the B-team, which is why they did that Wu-Massacre joint. They know their positions. Another kinda bullshit deal because they were the younger, flyer dudes with pop appeal. And RZA, GZA and ODB have always been the ones the management took care of most.

I think ODB dying and pretty much leaving the group early on messed up the Wu's political dynamic more than anything because a lot of members preferred his party style and focus on money more than RZA and GZA's serious "artiness" and MCing. And part of ODB leaving was him being treated as #3 when he was everyone's favorite. He wanted to lead as much as RZA and GZA, which is why he had Brooklyn Zu showcased so much. Also, RZA and GZA are older so they fell out of love with rap before everyone else which leaves everyone without leadership or anyone pushing for new projects. But there's nothing anyone can do because its RZA's group and he put all of them on. Wu management is really what gives him that authority over the group, which is probably why he doesn't help change it even tho he knows they suck. They got their jobs just to protect RZA's leadership.

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

most artists' management do everything to NOT let the labels rape them. Dirty had his own manager when he signed with Roc-a-fella, so obviously he didn't like Wu management and it seems most have left them too. Wu management only manages random Killa Beez and the group projects/tours. the solo members have their own management now, which explains Meth acting more than rapping.

it seems the solo Wu generals are unhappy with how much management still get and how bad they were at business in the Wu's heyday.

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That thing between ODB & ROC/Dame is still weird. Didn't that kid reach out to him, and to Dame to sign him? . . . Yeah, Jarred Weisfeld. From what i gather, he reached out to ODB to get him some money, and set up the deal with Dame. (I'm saying Dame because word is Hov was not happy with this.) On top of that Jarred was a fucking greenhorn that should have never been in that position in my opinion. Village something wrote a whole article about him in the years since.

The other thing that is going around, is that ODB needed money, or so he thought. So when somebody comes and says they got this money for you immediately, he went in. Besides that, because he did feel like he was financially being fucked over. Got Your Money is supposed to be a dig at RZA. He wanted to be independent like the rest of the Clan, he was the last was still signed on the original management. Reluctantly RZA let him go, though Divine pointed out in the documentary Mics & Men what this meant to the pie. Buddha Monk also explains the money situation a bit in his book.

Since RZA has opened up about the situation stating:

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“We talked a lot. When people say that nobody visited ODB in jail, no, I visited ODB in jail. Okay?

“I told him, ’Yo, when you get out, fuck the world. I’m gonna put you in a Manhattan apartment, I’m gonna give you a girl, the kinda girl that’s gonna live with you, she’s gonna take care of you. I’m building a gym for you, the studio is right there, and we don’t need nobody, it’s just me and you and we’re gonna go and do what we said we were gonna do as kids, we’re gonna live out our destiny.’


“And then the week before he was getting out I was on the phone with him. I called Tom Whalley over at Warner Bros. I’m like, ‘Yo, I wanna come over there and I’ma bring Ol’ Dirty over there and we’re just gonna focus on making music.’ And he was like, ‘I got you.’ He gave me numbers. So I told Ol’ Dirty, ‘I got this much money for you. Listen this is gonna be great, you ain’t gotta worry about nothing.’


“While this was going on I had to fly to London because I was doing some press for Derailed.” Referring to the film he starred in alongside Clive Owen and Jennifer Aniston, RZA continues: “ODB got released while I was in London and I was due home two days later. That’s when I saw it on the news: ‘ODB signs with Roc-A-Fella Records.’”

After all the work behind-the-scenes on getting everything ready for Ol’ Dirty’s return it’s understandable that RZA would feel a type of way. Disappointed not only because his brother had gone back on his word, the fact that he had to see the announcement on TV first before being told, especially when other members of the Wu family were present, was obviously going to be a bit of a blow.


He continues: “I was like ‘What the fuck?’ Not only did he sign to Roc-A-Fella but he had Popa Wu standing beside him and he had 12 O’Clock standing beside him. So he had them standing beside him, as well as his mom. There was nothing I could do. I went to see them and his mother said to me, ‘Baby, let him have his own life.’ And all I could say was: ‘Yes, okay auntie.’”

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Originally Posted by Hollow Dartz

Wrong. If that were the case they wouldn't be complaining like they used to. In my opinion it goes both ways. First of all the industry is definitely setup for the Artist to get the least amount of money. As an artist you have to do your best to manage your money properly and expand your brand. Alot of Wu members were not really doing this until basically after 8 Diagrams. But even then they were still depending on the Indie labels. I think Raekwon was the first one to really understand how this shit works. That Run he went on after 8 Diagrams up until Shaolin vs Wu-Tang was great for him. He was an owner and started selling his own Merch. He was eating great around that time. Most of the other clan members still don't have a feel for the independent game, be over charging for everything lol

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We really need to celebrate Rae more for his hustling moves on that. He tried great, and most of the time understood what it took. Especially what you are saying, not overcharging. Make me do wonder how Priest is eating right now, because some of his albums on Bandcamp are pretty expensive as a digital version. Charging CD prices. Just weird.

Thats all eye opening about RZA and the ROC. That was an obvious rushjob by Dame to get some kind of publicity and pimp a big name artist. I hate Dame for that stunt. The shitty reality TV show they made around it had Dame looking into the camera while ODB was signing and saying something corny like, "Yeah, we about to make money" with this smirk knowing he was taking advantage of dude. Jay might've been upset because he looked up to ODB and saw what a bad deal Dame gave him.

But when it comes to RZA, his heart might have been in the right place and I'm sure he had a better plan for Dirty than ODB's own management, but its sounds like Brian Wilson in the Beach Boys with a mentally ill member being the cashcow in the group and feeling other members wanted to control his freedom just for their own bank. Funny enough, that was a beef between cousins too. It sounds like Dirty just wanted a big advance instead of building stead, small money with the Wu. Not wise but it sounds like Wu wasn't handling things well either.

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

Thats all eye opening about RZA and the ROC. That was an obvious rushjob by Dame to get some kind of publicity and pimp a big name artist. I hate Dame for that stunt. The shitty reality TV show they made around it had Dame looking into the camera while ODB was signing and saying something corny like, "Yeah, we about to make money" with this smirk knowing he was taking advantage of dude. Jay might've been upset because he looked up to ODB and saw what a bad deal Dame gave him.

But when it comes to RZA, his heart might have been in the right place and I'm sure he had a better plan for Dirty than ODB's own management, but its sounds like Brian Wilson in the Beach Boys with a mentally ill member being the cashcow in the group and feeling other members wanted to control his freedom just for their own bank. Funny enough, that was a beef between cousins too. It sounds like Dirty just wanted a big advance instead of building stead, small money with the Wu. Not wise but it sounds like Wu wasn't handling things well either.

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I knew the story b/w ODB and RZA, but not the deal Dame made. I never got the raw details. What kind of deal was it?

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Originally Posted by IrOnMaN

I knew the story b/w ODB and RZA, but not the deal Dame made. I never got the raw details. What kind of deal was it?

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Weisfeld set him up on that deal, together with the TV show. The Elektra contract was already over. He was signed to Wu-Tang Productions though. RZA released him, and Dame paid RZA for some productions on the album according to Buddha Monk. Dirty got an advance, and had to deliver an album for the Roc. Don't know if the guest verses were also part of that deal, or part of the promo campaign.

Both RZa & Hov heard about the deal after the fact, but by this time Hov & dame were already drifting a part.

Just after dirty died, Roc-A-Fella was bought by Def Jam. Dame moved the music to his new label Dame Dash Music Group. That label has since folded, and 10 years ago he was still sitting on that music according to Barson. The A Son Unique that has been released on DSP's, looks like a lossy version based upon the one that was temporarily available on iTunes. Not on the masters.

So why was RZA shocked Dirty signed to Roc-a-fella if he released Dirty from Wu Tang's management? Not contradicting any of your info but it sounds like RZA knew Dirty didn't want RZA handling his career. I hate Dame not because he swooped in as much as him putting Dirty to work quickly and obviously not caring about his mental recovery or sobriety. Of course RZA would do more for Dirty but I think almost any indie rap label would've done more than Roc did for an artist that big. But you bring up the fact that the Roc was crumbling and Dame was doing funny stuff just to get political power against Jay. Def Jam really should've bought out Dirty's project from Dame but it sounds like Dame might've signed ODB strictly to own a big artist's work when Jay inevitably left him.

Ason Unique is a decent album but a lot of the Roc features and beats seem like random shit Dame owned and threw on there to complete it. There's more music from those recordings that have come out. I was just thinking someone should compile all of it and eliminate the corny Roc artists.

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

So why was RZA shocked Dirty signed to Roc-a-fella if he released Dirty from Wu Tang's management? Not contradicting any of your info but it sounds like RZA knew Dirty didn't want RZA handling his career. I hate Dame not because he swooped in as much as him putting Dirty to work quickly and obviously not caring about his mental recovery or sobriety. Of course RZA would do more for Dirty but I think almost any indie rap label would've done more than Roc did for an artist that big. But you bring up the fact that the Roc was crumbling and Dame was doing funny stuff just to get political power against Jay. Def Jam really should've bought out Dirty's project from Dame but it sounds like Dame might've signed ODB strictly to own a big artist's work when Jay inevitably left him.

Ason Unique is a decent album but a lot of the Roc features and beats seem like random shit Dame owned and threw on there to complete it. There's more music from those recordings that have come out. I was just thinking someone should compile all of it and eliminate the corny Roc artists.

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There is this bit from a Complex interview after the doc series:
https://www.complex.com/music/a/shaw...-men-interview

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When you were talking about ODB in the doc, you said, "We're the dream itself," meaning that you two were the nucleus of the group. The footage of him goes from 1991 all the way to the end of his life. What was it like looking at all the stuff about Dirty?
RZA: Yeah. That was also very sad and morbid. It was very painful to watch it. You have joy and pain that's happening. You get the joy of him and his energy. And then, the documentary goes and shows the fat Dirty, when Roc-A-Fella had him [Dirty signed to Roc-A-Fella in 2003, after coming out of prison]. I always felt like they never treated [him] the way he was supposed to be treated.

The movie's not kind to Roc-A-Fella.
RZA: No. They never treated him the way he's supposed to be treated. Even a diamond when it comes out of the ground, it's just a rock to be polished, and then cleaned and cut right. When he came out the system they were just like, “No, let's just move him here.” When you watch it, for me it was hard. It was a joy to see my brother. And they got stuff in there that none of us had ever seen in the film, because they had a camera following him. [Dirty was being filmed at the time for a never-completed VH1 reality show, though some footage showed up in a documentary the channel aired]. They was doing something that he didn't know they was doing. Reality shows wasn't real yet like that. He became the first experiment of a reality show, and he didn't know that.


So he's sitting there talking and explaining what's on his mind, and he's being influenced to talk. There's one scene in there where he says, “RZA won't let me out my contract. What the fuck you doing?” He was cursing on camera. And then Jarred [Weisfeld, Dirty’s then-manager] just throws a pin there: “What, RZA wants money?”


I'm never going to ask my cousin for no money or nothing like that. Out of anybody, I feel he is not supposed to leave Wu-Tang Production because this is our dreams. I'm brought back to laying in bed at 12 years old looking up and dreaming. It's just me and this guy. It ain't all of us.

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As far as the album goes, Dirty was in the studio with Neptunes for example. But according to accounts from Buddha Monk he just was not himself. He could not pull off the things that Dirty used to do. His health just was not there. N.O.R.E. was not in the studio though, he is on record as saying this.

Talking about funny, Dame signed Posh Spice. She did a track with MOP.

As far as I can tell the only corny Roc artist on there was Young Chris.

It just wasn't a great album - taking a few features off won't make a difference. He reached the tipping point where the drugs had took over.

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Originally Posted by ShaDynasty

As far as I can tell the only corny Roc artist on there was Young Chris.

It just wasn't a great album - taking a few features off won't make a difference. He reached the tipping point where the drugs had took over.

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While I agree that the album was not great at all, at least the version we got. And I do wonder what was not released, or what Dame is still sitting on. Though RZA is on record as saying there is next to nothing any more, safe for this N***a Please track. I do have to disagree with your point that the drugs took over. There was so much more going on here. First, he was out of shape. You can hear this on the When You Hear That track which was recorded fresh out of jail. Next, he was still coping with the meds they put him on in jail. These meds made him a shadow of his former energetic self. And on top of that, he is coping with being out in the world again. He is just not in a healthy mental space at this point, just scared. I think that was what really had taken him over. The drugs, as in the recreational drugs, that was just a coping mechanism with all the former. We witnessed a broken man being pranced around in front of cameras which be some accounts he did not even know where going to be there. Dirty just needed a safe place for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Jet Set

Weisfeld set him up on that deal, together with the TV show. The Elektra contract was already over. He was signed to Wu-Tang Productions though. RZA released him, and Dame paid RZA for some productions on the album according to Buddha Monk. Dirty got an advance, and had to deliver an album for the Roc. Don't know if the guest verses were also part of that deal, or part of the promo campaign.

Both RZa & Hov heard about the deal after the fact, but by this time Hov & dame were already drifting a part.

Just after dirty died, Roc-A-Fella was bought by Def Jam. Dame moved the music to his new label Dame Dash Music Group. That label has since folded, and 10 years ago he was still sitting on that music according to Barson. The A Son Unique that has been released on DSP's, looks like a lossy version based upon the one that was temporarily available on iTunes. Not on the masters.

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Great breakdown! Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Jet Set

While I agree that the album was not great at all, at least the version we got. And I do wonder what was not released, or what Dame is still sitting on. Though RZA is on record as saying there is next to nothing any more, safe for this N***a Please track. I do have to disagree with your point that the drugs took over. There was so much more going on here. First, he was out of shape. You can hear this on the When You Hear That track which was recorded fresh out of jail. Next, he was still coping with the meds they put him on in jail. These meds made him a shadow of his former energetic self. And on top of that, he is coping with being out in the world again. He is just not in a healthy mental space at this point, just scared. I think that was what really had taken him over. The drugs, as in the recreational drugs, that was just a coping mechanism with all the former. We witnessed a broken man being pranced around in front of cameras which be some accounts he did not even know where going to be there. Dirty just needed a safe place for a moment.

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Yeah. I remember this in high school and I can recall saying to myself that this wasn't good for Dirty. When I heard he passed, I wasn't surprised but I recall feeling pissed because Dirty still had so much potential. Dame saw a desperate man and then decided to take full advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29LoqXfaNvw

Who is Powerules on here? This is what he posted in the comments:

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Well for starters, Rae says each Wu member put up $40K for Wu-Wear, and until this day, they have never received a penny on that investment. Rae and U God allege that RZA and Divine hid royalties and other income from the group for years. Those details will have to come straight from the horse's mouth. It wasn't so much that they didn't receive up-front money; they complain that they have yet to receive what is fully due. But yes, again, without RZA, there is no Wu-Tang. He had the vision, intelligence, and business-drive to make things happen, but he is shrewd to the point that he's hard to trust. (Consider he paid Mathematic's all of $250 or $500 for the rights to the Wu logo - seriously, how much money has been made off that brand, and the person who came up with the one of the most iconic logos in the history of music only has sneaker money to show for it?). Most fans understand that when Tommy Boy dropped RZA from his solo deal, he was back to square-one, which involved coming up for a new vision to reemerge within the industry, and he did damn near the impossible - he brought together a group of exceptionally talented jailbirds with multiple egos and got them off the ground.

One of the gripes among the group involves RZA getting involved with Gravediggaz and Killa Army when he had yet to complete all of the Wu solo albums, and had yet to begin working on the second group album. Deck's album was destroyed and he had to pull together his solo albums without much assistance from RZA; U God had a fairly decent first album with multiple producers; and Masta Killa received very little assistance with his solo projects. Rae also complains that when it was time for him to follow-up OB4CL, he approached RZA for help and was basically brushed off. So, on the one hand, you have RZA and Divine running the money aspect of the group, which none of the members were capable of handling. Yet, the main gripe among those complaining is RZA, Divine, and Power didn't reveal the full extent of the revenue stream. And yes, there are a couple of members of the group who were perfectly fine with RZA calling all the shots and being shady with the money. Now musically, I think all fans can identify with the group complaining about the deteriorating production by RZA.

In my opinion, Forever is a dope album, but some of the members began grumbling that the production was lacking, and things only became worse on following albums. Rae says they complained to RZA and suggested bringing in new producers, but by all accounts, RZA is a control freak - again, a control freak who provided the springboard into music careers for a bunch of guys who were living day-to-day, and by all appearances, RZA used their business naïveté to long-term financial disadvantage. Consider what RZA did on the last so-called Wu Tang album - he hijacked a Mathematic's album, and released it as a Wu-Tang album, when it's not even a group effort. And who got paid the most on that project?

Wu Tang LLC - a RZA's controlled entity.

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Damn, that Powerrules comment is brutal if 100% true

Nah, "Ason Unique" has a lot of good verses from ODB. Its easily him at his most skilled and serious as an MC. No, he wasn't energetic or silly or in good spirits. Thats exactly why I like the album. He reveals more of his street background and depressing self-analysis throughout while delivering competent 2000s "club rap" bars over goofy Roc a Fella beats. Its not what Wu fans expect or like but its not that much different than a lot of Wu projects from the last 20 years. Definitely more consistent and weird than Meth's albums or "Ghostface Killahs" which are pretty much the same for-the-money, past-their-prime albums. I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy. "Back In The Air" is one of the best Wu songs from that era. When I say corny artists, I mean Young Chris, Missy, Joe Budden and I haaaate The Clipse (I know I'm in the minority there). The poppy sound kinda throws off the mature, depressing lyrics and Dame sucks for not adjusting Roc to ODB instead of forcing that sound on him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IrOnMaN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29LoqXfaNvw

Who is Powerules on here? This is what he posted in the comments:

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Nice breakdown. Couple of things though.

He's right about Wu-Wear as far as I know.

When you are just starting out, and you get a designer for a logo. Often you pay them an upfront fee for their work. That's just it. Off course, at that point, when you are not famous, there is not saying how this will take off. You could choose for some other type of contract with money flowing back constantly, but who does that with a designer? That's a lot of paperwork if you just start out. Now there is something to say about revisiting that initial payment and contract. Don't know if that ever happened.

The first Gravediggaz was already in the can before recording on 36 started. Prince Paul had been shopping it around, and nobody wanted it untill Wu took off. Second one was done at the same time as Wu-Tang Forever, in the same studio. Killarmy was handled more by 4th I believe. (If somebody has more info on Killarmy, please elaborate. Same for Sunz of Man. Fuck that first album flows nicely.) Interestingly Rae says that RZA was supposed to go around the dial, and do 10 albums in 7 years. One with each solo member. We know how that ended up for Deck due to the flood. U-God was also left hanging, while hungry. At one point True Master was supposed to handle that album. And I think Masta always plotted his own course and speed. RZA was too busy fucking around with other friends outside of the group according to Rae, I imagine this being Black Knights of the Northstar by that time. Rae did approach by RZA did not have time for his sophomore. Which just sounds so fucking sad. He was ready for another round for the team, but the leader was not there.

Around Wu-Tang Forever, Divine did some interesting accounting according to Rae. His whole book is him asking for transparency of the money, which he did not get. Only a 'don't worry about it'. For the second album they got an advance, and there was a budget for everyday expenses and housing. Apparently only Divine knew that number. He gave everything American Express cards to use to cover their costs of living in L.A. At the end they got served with itimized bills for what they bought with those cards which was subtracted from their advances and not from the recording budget.

Btw, I thought they wanted to bring in outside producers after Forever?

Cyrus touched upon something interesting in his book in regard to OUATIS, and maybe Ringz elaborated on here. The point being made was about the sales of the album. How much would it sell if it was a Ringz album, and how much would it sell if it was a Clan album? That last number would be significantly higher due to the name. The name would also bring other people to the table, Divine, Power et al. Besides Ringz & the Clan, they would also be eating of this pie for which they put no time in.

The last album Mathematics sold, that was The Answer from 2013. My guess is, not a lot of people know about that, nor that it sold a lot. I see on Spotify he has about 7,500 monthly listeners with his most listened song being Cash Still Rules at over 9 million. The second best is Wu-Gambinos at 61,000. Both songs from his Avenging Eagles mixtape. On the other hand, you have the Clan with over 6 million monthly listeners. All the top 10 songs of the Clan clock in at over 10 million streams. A rough estimate would be that this would at least 10 fold of what he would have done on the strength of his own name. Plus he could do a lot of press which he otherwise could not have. I have to agree though, did the sage continue? Or did we see a breakthrough in who got paid the most?

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy.

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Do you like any tracks on OB4CL2? I'm surprised by this take

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Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

Damn, that Powerrules comment is brutal if 100% true

Nah, "Ason Unique" has a lot of good verses from ODB. Its easily him at his most skilled and serious as an MC. No, he wasn't energetic or silly or in good spirits. Thats exactly why I like the album. He reveals more of his street background and depressing self-analysis throughout while delivering competent 2000s "club rap" bars over goofy Roc a Fella beats. Its not what Wu fans expect or like but its not that much different than a lot of Wu projects from the last 20 years. Definitely more consistent and weird than Meth's albums or "Ghostface Killahs" which are pretty much the same for-the-money, past-their-prime albums. I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy. "Back In The Air" is one of the best Wu songs from that era. When I say corny artists, I mean Young Chris, Missy, Joe Budden and I haaaate The Clipse (I know I'm in the minority there). The poppy sound kinda throws off the mature, depressing lyrics and Dame sucks for not adjusting Roc to ODB instead of forcing that sound on him.

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A lot of Ason Unique was ghost written by Royal Flush.

Dude in that comment is ivereacting

rza made the W a global logo. Its just a drawing that was paid for on spec like any other art project. He turned it into a global thing. Math got to be the wus dj for it, fair trade imo. Hes globally known as wus dj and was the only guy getting beats on albums post 2000s as true and 4th got left behind totally minus a few tracks.

Rae shoulda focused on taking less checks and putting that power into his aobuks cuz both his second and tbird albums are weak yet in those years he was at his peak, musta had 200 tracks for features, wu features, mixtape exclusives and soundtrack cuts.

rae also dont speak at all on power even tho he accuses him of stealing so what is it?

i dont wanna hear wu over other producers shit. Sorry. None of the producers make the wutang sound. Them chasing those other sounds is what hurt them. When they followed the formula, ie. No said date in 04, cuban 2 in 09, they did well. They all ate. None of them have to release another album. There isnt another rap group eating like them. Rza did that for them. A better tomorrow was wack but 8d wasnt. Iron flag was the groups choices. They all want rza to hold their hand when they need him. But will leave him hanging like the 8d fiasco or cuttin his shit on cuban 2.

Record deals tend to suck if you're a dumbass, and they're even worst if you're a lazy dumb ass. You can sign a bad deal (for some reason) but they usually have limitation clauses. We need 4 albums, etc etc. Nigga, make the four fucking albums. The issue is these guys take 20 years to make 4-5 albums. How much money can a label and a rapper make if you produce a tangible product every 3-4 years. The labels do a lot more work than the artist. All the artists has to do is make music, perform and do appearances. The label should of course make more money. The company also has the job of managing these ridiculous characters into a tangible product.

Did Wu management fuck over ODB or did ODB, as a well defined character trait, not cooperate with anything, constantly violate the law, disappear for large periods of time, not show up for his own events, and have minimal to no actual work effort in the recording process? We're on our 3rd Masta Killa album in about 30 years? I think our 4th-5th Deck. When Wu-tang would go on radio etc in the 90s, Methodman did all the freestyling, all the talking. Method man also has the least amount of complaints about Wu-management.


Then when you leave these artists to their own devices, you realize it was the company you're a fan off and the guy is a bit of a moron. Put a camera in front of Ugod or Rae and they'll shit on Wutang (Their only real source of income and success). Put it in front of Meth or Rza, doesn't happen.

We owe a lot of appreciation to record companies. They're the ones that made 90s rap make sense and seem cool and digestable. The shit looks disgusting now because the artists are more in charge. And with that increased control they want you to see themselves fist fighting their girlfriend who they pay $100,000k monthly to be mid and disagreeable. Nobody has to sign 'a bad deal' and all the wutang members owe a lot to Wu-Management. Imagine trying to run a company and some idiot decides to bring his 14 armed friends, so now you have to get a second bus, then the idiot starts complaining that you're skimping on his check because this 1 show with 9 men plus their individual friends is the only financial endevour he'll pursuit in the next 2 years as an adult man with 11 kids.

Not sure why I opened this page of this thread and read those last 2 posts, but lolz @ them.

One of few episodes I thought was quite well done in the shitty Wu show, was the one where Divine was running around the Wu mansion trying to manage all those bozos. It can't have been easy.

When I was watching that show I was thinking how completely impossible it would have been and always would be to adequately manage a group of 9 rowdy hood dudes, and actually make a proper, long term go of it. No matter who or how many people are managing them, it's gonna be an absolute fucking nightmare.

They did well, considering.

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Originally Posted by ForensikZ

Dude in that comment is ivereacting

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForensikZ

There isnt another rap group eating like them. Rza did that for them. A better tomorrow was wack but 8d wasnt. Iron flag was the groups choices. They all want rza to hold their hand when they need him. But will leave him hanging like the 8d fiasco or cuttin his shit on cuban 2.

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BTNH, but Easy rob them with that deal.

RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

Watched the 2004 Rock the Bells doc covering Wu's last performance together, 4 months before ODB's death. Shows all the members had separate managers at this time. The promoters booked every member individually without telling RZA it was a reunion. RZA had the power to nix the whole thing but allowed it because he knew how historic it would be. There's some interviews with ODB's manager who was a VH1 exec who got the reality show greenlit by lying that he knew ODB. He befriended ODB in jail and agrees along with ODB's mom that it was prison that ultimately killed him. He went to max security with killers & rapists, never slept and got his jaw broken. The clan didn't reach out to him except Meth and maybe someone else. And when he got out he was severely depressed and given drugs by fans on his solo tour. Thats why he showed up to the reunion messed up and where he got the coke that finally killed him. (he swallowed it at airport security)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TSA

Record deals tend to suck if you're a dumbass, and they're even worst if you're a lazy dumb ass. You can sign a bad deal (for some reason) but they usually have limitation clauses. We need 4 albums, etc etc. Nigga, make the four fucking albums. The issue is these guys take 20 years to make 4-5 albums. How much money can a label and a rapper make if you produce a tangible product every 3-4 years. The labels do a lot more work than the artist. All the artists has to do is make music, perform and do appearances. The label should of course make more money. The company also has the job of managing these ridiculous characters into a tangible product.

Did Wu management fuck over ODB or did ODB, as a well defined character trait, not cooperate with anything, constantly violate the law, disappear for large periods of time, not show up for his own events, and have minimal to no actual work effort in the recording process? We're on our 3rd Masta Killa album in about 30 years? I think our 4th-5th Deck. When Wu-tang would go on radio etc in the 90s, Methodman did all the freestyling, all the talking. Method man also has the least amount of complaints about Wu-management.


Then when you leave these artists to their own devices, you realize it was the company you're a fan off and the guy is a bit of a moron. Put a camera in front of Ugod or Rae and they'll shit on Wutang (Their only real source of income and success). Put it in front of Meth or Rza, doesn't happen.

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Almost no one makes money off record deals. The albums you make for labels are just advertisement for your tours & merch. And the ones who do make money are the ones who get to renegotiate a deal because they did whatever the label wanted.

Artists not producing a lot is entirely on the labels. How the music business works: you get a big advance that is really a loan. Labels want the artist to spend that advance PLUS pay for the recording of the album. Why? Because the bigger advance they give, the less they have to pay artists later from their actual music. This happens with 99.9% of rappers' first deals because they are young and broke. Rappers make nothing off the albums unless its a big success. They are the last to get paid. So when they do the 2nd album, the label makes most of the decisions because the artist still owes them that advance for getting signed. And if the label doesn't like the music, they can just shelve the music and let an artist's contract expire and block them from making music or getting signed by better labels. Happened a hundred times with rappers who were popular but didn't release music when they should have.

And this happened with Wu too. What 2nd generation solo album was really given the marketing or production it deserves besides Nigga Please and Supreme Clientele? And neither album had a strong follow-up. Because rappers don't make anything off the actual albums unless the label puts marketing to make it a success and doesn't rape them with a big deal.

And the Wu are middle-aged now. The labels are not going to put money into older dads when they can make more money off young idiots right out the hood they can 100% control and pay pennies and tour 24/7 while taking their show & merch money. There just aren't enough small/indie hip-hop labels for most veteran or alternative rappers anymore.

Big corporate labels aren't good guys saving niggas from the hood and trying to make stars. They're about making money even if the artist doesn't blow. They sign 100 artists expecting maybe 5 to work out. And they save all their money for the most safe and gullible "talent" and just use the rest. No one can even argue against that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IrOnMaN

BTNH, but Easy rob them with that deal.

RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

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rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

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Originally Posted by ForensikZ

rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

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Trust me, Bone is still releasing music and touring. All five members are doing well still.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForensikZ

rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

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facts. The concert presentation from Wu-Tang the last 8 years is telling enough. Just to bring stage-sized screens with expertly choreographed Kung Fu clips and Wu animations to EVERY show has to be insanely expensive. Like 50+ thousand a show expensive of their own expense, but they are able to do that now.

Quote:

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They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

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GZA can put his hands in his pockets, stand in one place or sit on a stool for an hour and sell out a venue in most cities on a whim, and he's almost 60 fucking years old lol. Not a single BTNH member can do this.

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RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

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It's impossibly freakish what he actually had to do to make Wu-Tang what it is though. Like ForensikZ said he made them superstars and while doing so he took infinitely less pay for their albums. He could've charged any artist 50-150 thousand per beat since the mid 90's - that alone should come with the level of authority. The older I get the more I think what RZA did is some kind of historical anomaly, idk if it'll ever be fully appreciated.

I'm super glad they weren't working with random artists at that time anyway, it would have taken away from their allure. Even if he was control freakish, it's a moot point compared to what he got correct.

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

facts. The concert presentation from Wu-Tang the last 8 years is telling enough. Just to bring stage-sized screens with expertly choreographed Kung Fu clips and Wu animations to EVERY show has to be insanely expensive. Like 50+ thousand a show expensive of their own expense, but they are able to do that now.

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With current technology, those screens should be a lot cheaper compared to 20-30 years ago. Does make me wonder though what the cost of the show would be, I'll see if someone can answer that. (I remember this talk where people talking about designing a stage for Amon Tobin, and taking into account the maximum size that could fit in a container for shipping.) That being said, that shit was needed to finally bring those sort of chaotic shows to something that their fanbase would like to see. No 40 year old wants to see 9 people just sort of dwell on stage for 40 minutes and leave.

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GZA can put his hands in his pockets, stand in one place or sit on a stool for an hour and sell out a venue in most cities on a whim, and he's almost 60 fucking years old lol. Not a single BTNH member can do this.

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I think GZA has gotten a pretty steady stream of money with those lectures he did, as well as a lot of new connections within the science scene. Shit, he even did a whole series called Liquid Science.

Quote:

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It's impossibly freakish what he actually had to do to make Wu-Tang what it is though. Like ForensikZ said he made them superstars and while doing so he took infinitely less pay for their albums. He could've charged any artist 50-150 thousand per beat since the mid 90's - that alone should come with the level of authority. The older I get the more I think what RZA did is some kind of historical anomaly, idk if it'll ever be fully appreciated.

I'm super glad they weren't working with random artists at that time anyway, it would have taken away from their allure. Even if he was control freakish, it's a moot point compared to what he got correct.

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Probably not. What people in '98 were writing about was that the brand was being devalued with all these releases. This is in the eyes of the more mainstream public. Those are the same people that just take for granted what RZA did.