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John 12:44, Jesus cried and said "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me but on him that sent me
John 13:16, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord: neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him
nice little ( Jesus) there to infer what is not said outright even as what I'm saying was plainly spoken by Jesus himself. He understood that the spirit of God resides in him (as it resides in us all) but that He was not equal to God himself.
:)
that is true GOD the FATHER sent JESUS but that still doesnt mean that JESUS isnt GOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
this doesnt prove anything !!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
Jesus never once claimed he was greater than the father ....but that doesnt mean he isnt GOD.
You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, .for the Father is greater than I
GOD= father, son and holy spirit...but the father is greater because he is the head of the trinity,.. but JESUS is still GOD...because GOD is father son and holy spirit.
that example proved nothing.:cheerlie:
no he understood he was GOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
peace be with you !
I can't help if you don't have reading comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by prof zooruka
If one is greater than the other then they can not be equals. Jesus was sent by God and of God but was not God.
The trinity is a catholic idea but it isn't a biblical one, which I have showed you with his own word but which you fail to understand.
Matthew 19:17, And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
your still not proving anything.
JESUS never said they where equals !!!!! like I already stated JESUS said that the father was greater but like I said before to that does not mean he was not GOD.
GOD = father , son , holy spirit
Know like i said the father is the head of the trinity so he is greater than Jesus but Jesus is still GOD because GOD almighty is father,son, holy spirit..now the reason JESUS said that he wasnt good and GOD was the only good one is because GOD the father is the head of the trinity he is the author of the plan he is the brains behind the operation so to speak.... JESUS was acknowleding that fact and saying he is really the good one because he is the one who came with the idea`s understand ???....that is also why when Jesus was resurected he said tell them (his disciples) I go to my GOD and there GOD..because even though JESUS is part of the GODhead the father is the head (the brains) thus making him GOD but Jesus is still GOD also because GOD is made up of father son holy spirit but the father is the leader of the God head thus making him greatest and GOD...I know its sounds confusing but it makes perfect sense you just have to understand the trinity.
peace be with you !
^that IS the antithesis to making perfect senseQuote:
Originally Posted by prof zooruka
You think Jesus was God but that God was greater. There's a break in logic there and if you can't see it, well I don't know what to tell you. Being endowed with the spirit of God does not make one God. I don't blame this seemingly global misunderstanding on Jesus. He tried telling the world the same thing I'm telling you. He's NOT God. He's endowed with the spirit of God and had a message the world needed to hear but that message came through Jesus from God. Being God's messenger, while certainly being important, does not make you God's equal. You seem to understand this last part or at least almost understand it but then throw in the Holy Trinity bit. Either You're God or you're not. Being God means being equal to God and if you're not equal to God then you're not God and hence there's no such thing as the Trinity. There's God and God alone along with all His messengers and manifestations. The trees are of God, the mountains are of God, the stars are of God. The clouds, the rain, the wind. All of God. But none of them are God and none of them are God's equal. You wouldn't call the sun God, why would you call Jesus God? He got offended when someone else came up to him and implied it to his face and why? He knew he wasn't God.
You might find words in the Bible that lead credence to the Trinity but you won't find those words come straight from Jesus's mouth. And if you do then please feel free to share. The closest you'll find is implications of being of God's spirit. "Me and the Father are One". This isn't the same thing as saying I AM GOD.
haha yepQuote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
i was having fun with prof until i cornered him into a few things he had no real logical way of explaining - then i was done with the dude
It's an odd thing, I'm not trying to sway him from his faith only to show him that he doesn't have to be so blind in following it. It's possible to know and love Jesus and the message he sent and still have your eyes open. He talks to me like its a contradiction :lmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumm Ra
Old TestamentQuote:
Originally Posted by prof zooruka
Book Author Date Written
Genesis Moses ? - 1445 B.C.
Exodus Moses 1445 - 1405 B.C.
Leviticus Moses 1405 B.C.
Numbers Moses 1444 - 1405 B.C.
Deuteronomy Moses 1405 B.C.
Joshua Joshua 1404-1390 B.C.
Judges Samuel 1374-1129 B.C.
Ruth Samuel 1150? B.C.
First Samuel Samuel 1043-1011 B.C.
Second Samuel Ezra? 1011-1004 B.C.
First Kings Jeremiah? 971-852 B.C.
Second Kings Jeremiah? 852-587 B.C.
First Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Second Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Ezra Ezra 538-520 B.C.
Nehemiah Nehemiah 445 - 425 B.C.
Esther Mordecai? 465 B.C.
Job Job? ??
Psalms David 1000? B.C.
Sons of Korah wrote Psalms 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87; Asaph wrote Psalms 50, 73-83; Heman wrote Psalm 88; Ethan wrote Psalm 89; Hezekiah wrote Psalms 120-123, 128-130, 132, 134-136;
Solomon wrote Psalms 72, 127.
Proverbs Solomon wrote 1-29
Agur wrote 30
Lemuel wrote 31 950 - 700 B.C.
Ecclesiastes Solomon 935 B.C.
Song of Solomon Solomon 965 B.C.
Isaiah Isaiah 740 - 680 B.C.
Jeremiah Jeremiah 627 - 585 B.C.
Lamentations Jeremiah 586 B.C.
Ezekiel Ezekiel 593-560 B.C.
Daniel Daniel 605-536 B.C.
Hosea Hosea 710 B.C.
Joel Joel 835 B.C.
Amos Amos 755 B.C.
Obadiah Obadiah 840 or 586 B.C.
Jonah Jonah 760 B.C.
Micah Micah 700 B.C.
Nahum Nahum 663 - 612 B.C.
Habakkuk Habakkuk 607 B.C.
Zephaniah Zephaniah 625 B.C.
Haggai Haggai 520 B.C.
Zechariah Zechariah 520 - 518 B.C.
Malachi Malachi 450 - 600 B.C.
New Testament
Book Author Date Written (A.D)
Matthew Matthew 60's
Mark John Mark late 50's early 60's
Luke Luke 60
John John late 80's early 90's
Acts Luke 61
Romans Paul 55
1 Corinthians Paul 54
2 Corinthians Paul 55
Galatians Paul 49
Ephesians Paul 60
Philippians Paul 61
Colossians Paul 60
1 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
2 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
1 Timothy Paul 62
2 Timothy Paul 63
Titus Paul 62
Philemon Paul 60
Hebrews (Paul, Apollos, Barnabas...?) 60's
James James, half brother of Jesus 40's or 50's
1 Peter Peter 63
2 Peter Peter 63 - 64
1 John John late 80's early 90's
2 John John late 80's early 90's
3 John John late 80's early 90's
Jude Jude, half brother of Jesus 60's or 70's
Revelation John late 80's early 90's
So, if the above gentlemen wrote what Jesus said, why didn't Jesus himself write. Actually, lets get to the crux of it, from several thousand sources and texts, some men compiled the "Bible". All texts were written many many years after or before Christ. It is a given that before Christ, he couldn't have written the texts correct?
After? Well, he was not there, yet his words apparently remain unchanged? So good was the memory of people. Paul had such good memory of walking with Jesus knowing what he said?
Trinity?
Nicean Creed was the established centre of what became with the Trinity. Remember that Constantine comissioned this, the same guy who during the same time as the creed, commissioned temples in honour of Apollo, Diana and some other God. You mentioned how Constantine later became babtised and thus became true Christian.
You know why he did that so late in his life?
In the following text written by Marilena Amerise, 'Il battesimo di Costantino il Grande'
It was explained that he put off baptism right to end in order to be absolved from as much sin as he could that he committed in life.
That is the fallacy of many early Christian rulers who thought that they could murder, plunder, rape, kidnap, enslave anything they wanted and praise any deity that would make them look good, as long as this could be washed away by a quick baptism before death.
Zooroka, READ!!!
no theres not a break in logic...there is a GODhead and the father is the greatest ...look its like a company you have managers then you have the presidant !!! GOD the father is the presidant of the trinity but they are all apart of the same company.... there is hirachy in the GODhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
THE GOD HEADQuote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
FATHER (GOD) : the numero uno)
/ \
SON (JESUS) & HOLY SPIRT
but all of them together = GOD ALMIGHTY
(John 14-9)•“If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
this is coming straight from JESUS mouth he is plainly saying here he is GOD 100% ...while JESUS does have the spirit of GOD on him (you are correct when you say that) this statement wouldnt make any sense because having the spirit of GOD doesnt mean you are the very image of GOD but JESUS is saying here he is the very image of GOD on earth hence the statement " if you`ve seen me you`ve seen the father" meaning I am the very incarnation of GOD in the flesh so when you see me you are seeing GOD.
sorry visions you wont change my mind this and trust me it is 100% true.
read up on it visionz
peace be with you !
Reading comprehension and interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by prof zooruka
"If you've seen my every-enduring love and compassion for all of mankind then you have seen the one that sent me"
That's what he's saying there. I balance the verse you've quoted with everything else he's said. Jesus constantly attributes both his power, his words, his message to the One who sent him. He never takes credit for himself. You can keep repeating your Godhead theories but your inferences are contradicted by his own words.
"There is none good but He." Him refusing to take credit for who he is proves what I'm saying. Jesus knows the credit belongs to God and not himself. People misinterpret the message. When Jesus talks above no one gets through the Father but through him and such, people say that its a belief in Jesus that he's referring to. I don't see it that way. I understand him to mean that having love in your heart , the love that he brought to the world is what he's referring to.
Remember that it was Jesus himself that said if you forget all else to love and respect God and treat others as you want to be treated.
Love for God and for people was what he treasured most.
You can keep talking about Godhead, business managers, corporate layouts or whatever. The trinity is a man-made conception and has no basis in reality.
You can keep inferring if you want to but for all your inference there will still be Jesus's own words that contradict what you are saying. What I'm saying and what I'm telling you has no contradiction within Jesus's own words. Don't let me convince you of it but read your Bible and pay attention to what Jesus is saying. The trinity is an invention of the church.
umm no... JESUS literally means what he is saying when he says "if you have seen me you have seen the father" there is no hidden sub meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
I know that is correct but like I said the father is the brains of the operation so offcourse JESUS will attribute his deeds and words to GOD the father....but that doesnt mean he is not GOD.
please show mean how the GOD head (trinity) is contridicted by JESUS words I want examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
yes because GOD the father is the head so if he is coming up with all the idea`s then he alone is the good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
you just answered your own statement...i believe JESUS mean`t literally that nobody comes to the father but through him (meaning through his teachings)... but if it is as you say to have love the same love that JESUS had for the world, then that still comes from JESUS so it still means that nobody comes to the father but through JESUS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
that is true they are the most important commandments but JESUS was saying they are the bear essentials ...that doesnt mean his other teachings are to be done away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
your wrong.... and that is proven with the statment "if you have seen me you have seen the father"Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
visionz im not having a go at you but its because you dont know the concept of the trinity...JESUS`s words point to the trinity not contradict it... its just you can`t see it ... I suggest you raelly try and study it and see what its all about.
peace be with you !
I'm aware of the concept I just don't buy it. Jesus's word don't point to a trinity as I have shown you with scriptures out of his own mouth. It is an invention of the church and not of God nor Jesus. Being a part of God does not make one God.Quote:
Originally Posted by prof zooruka
^^^Yup. even my college religion teacher(who is a christian) will tell you that trinity was made up by people at one of the councils. i think it was nicea or trent i forgotQuote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
so being apart of the things that make up the one true and living GOD doesnt make you GOD ????Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
visionz you may have already stated this but who do you think JESUS is ???
peace with you !