shunning and rejecting luxury and desire

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

why do you question it? can you elaborate for me?

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i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LHX

i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

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not exactly, accumlating property gives you power, and wanting power is natural to humans. whether that is a good thing, that's a different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denaturat

wanting power is natural to humans

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i am not sold on this


add on

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LHX

i dont see what is natural about property
or having things that you dont need just for the sake of having it


that doesnt seem very natural

seems almost contradictory to nature



to carry more than you can possibly use?

thats bordering on being another example of absurdity

---

nah man, it is natural. look at other animals - magpies for example. they are known to prize things that shine, like metal rings. if you give something that looks nice to a monkey, he'll want to keep it. same with a human. if you see something pretty, you want it, right? and not on a consumer level either, you want it at the primal level of posession.
people have wanted keepsakes and nice things from the start of history. i remember once seeing a news item, about a viking comb that was found, that had the word "love" written on it - obviously a gift, and centuries before capitalism was even conceived. there must me a lot more examples out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denaturat

not exactly, accumlating property gives you power, and wanting power is natural to humans. whether that is a good thing, that's a different story.

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it is natural to humans, but the concept of power has been taken out of context by capitalism. you see, we are pack animals. that's why we live as family units, why we live in towns, cities, etc. why we have a group of friends. we thrive on socialising. now, it used to be, back in the stoneage, that we all had an instinct to want power, to be the alpha, especially in the case of men, but we also recognised that one of the pack is unquestionably the leader, and if he isn't, he would be deposed by a stronger man. our society has bastardised that instinct, that instinct that created a nice equilibrium between members of the pack, to make everyone want to succeed, to be the best, to keep getting better and better.
so it is technically human nature, but it's human nature out of context.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

nah man, it is natural. look at other animals - magpies for example. they are known to prize things that shine, like metal rings. if you give something that looks nice to a monkey, he'll want to keep it. same with a human. if you see something pretty, you want it, right? and not on a consumer level either, you want it at the primal level of posession.
people have wanted keepsakes and nice things from the start of history. i remember once seeing a news item, about a viking comb that was found, that had the word "love" written on it - obviously a gift, and centuries before capitalism was even conceived. there must me a lot more examples out there.

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do magpies talk to each other about how bad they want shiny things?

do they make plans to jack other magpies shiny things?

do they have the capacity to be aware of what they do?

do they have property?

money lenders?

real-estate agents?




it takes a lot of comfort and spare time to 'want things on a primal level'



why do you think somebody would put the word 'love' on a comb?


why would an inmate tattoo 'love' on his knuckles?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

we are pack animals. that's why we live as family units, why we live in towns, cities, etc. why we have a group of friends. we thrive on socialising. now, it used to be, back in the stoneage, that we all had an instinct to want power, to be the alpha, especially in the case of men, but we also recognised that one of the pack is unquestionably the leader, and if he isn't, he would be deposed by a stronger man. our society has bastardised that instinct, that instinct that created a nice equilibrium between members of the pack, to make everyone want to succeed, to be the best, to keep getting better and better.
so it is technically human nature, but it's human nature out of context.

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you might want to look at adding the following words to your repertoire -

- maybe
- might be
- seems
- appears to be


as in
'my studies seem to indicate that humans are pack animals'



because there is a lot of reason to believe that humans may not be 'pack animals'


dont be so definitive

PEACE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LHX

you might want to look at adding the following words to your repertoire -

- maybe
- might be
- seems
- appears to be


as in
'my studies seem to indicate that humans are pack animals'



because there is a lot of reason to believe that humans may not be 'pack animals'


dont be so definitive

PEACE

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i come across as definitive cos i'm just saying what i think. i have observed this, and so i think it. it is definitive, but only in my mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LHX

do magpies talk to each other about how bad they want shiny things?

do they make plans to jack other magpies shiny things?

do they have the capacity to be aware of what they do?

do they have property?

money lenders?

real-estate agents?




it takes a lot of comfort and spare time to 'want things on a primal level'



why do you think somebody would put the word 'love' on a comb?


why would an inmate tattoo 'love' on his knuckles?

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i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

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I wouln't analogise between animals and humans with too much confidence. I think it is a great question whether humans are by nature property accumulators.

we may judge the clubbers down town with their armani and hugo boss outfits, but if you look at ancient cultures all around the world, even non-materialistic hunter gatherer tribes, they wore elaborate costumes during various rituals (example, native americans, mayas, various african tribes, etc.) they didn't wear simple marxist style clothing.

also have you noticed how homeless people horde crap? cans, plastic bags, junk? why? do you think that having things of their own gives them some comfort?

I wonder, and I don't pretend to have an answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denaturat

I wouln't analogise between animals and humans with too much confidence. I think it is a great question whether humans are by nature property accumulators.

we may judge the clubbers down town with their armani and hugo boss outfits, but if you look at ancient cultures all around the world, even non-materialistic hunter gatherer tribes, they wore elaborate costumes during various rituals (example, native americans, mayas, various african tribes, etc.) they didn't wear simple marxist style clothing.

also have you noticed how homeless people horde crap? cans, plastic bags, junk? why? do you think that having things of their own gives them some comfort?

I wonder, and I don't pretend to have an answer.

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um i think you got me wrong, because i agree with you on all of that. you just made the point i was trying to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

um i think you got me wrong, because i agree with you on all of that. you just made the point i was trying to say.

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my bad, my response was intended for someone else

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denaturat

my bad, my response was intended for someone else

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:thumbup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LHX

is that the starting point to improving the situation?

if the system is foul
and it has you hooked on shit

and uses this in order to get you to support the system
will rejecting these elements make a difference?


do you have it in you to unhook yourself?

to take what you need and nothing more?


ive come across a lot of dudes that can talk revolution
but
cant put down the herb
and work at starbucks to support they habit

they want to see equality
but
not when tomorrow is the release date for the new joint on xbox

cant pay 45 cents for a cup of rice to learn how to cook a meal
but
they can pay $5 at fast food and fill up they belly with trash

add on

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I agree with you that we should master our desires and our wants so that we can be in control of self.

It just seems that the requirement of being completely in balance in this manner is way too much to ask, right now.

That's like telling a Black Man that he is God but, he can't shit...cuz if he shits then he ain't worthy.

I know that's not exactly what you were getting at but, it reminded me of this same thing.

I mean you have to go from knowledge to born meaning 1-9 and it ain't easy.

And once you reach Born you continue to revolve...

Elijah said pray for the wealth of Amerikkka to decline. I think he said this to let us know the attracting power of material things on the masses.

It's not an excuse, but I'm just saying....we all pay taxes or we pay the people who pay taxes. Until, we can't accept, because the system is disabled, or we won't accept the luxouries of the system through our own will, then we need to make room for the ones who maybe on their 4th or 5th degree on the way to 9th(born) where we are at and awaiting their arrival.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arto

i understand that humans maybe have a higher level of reasoning and intelligence, but i do think the principle is fundamentally the same

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the principle of attraction and magnetism always has something more to it than 'desire'


desire is when you have been conditioned to feel deprived of something
and it makes you want it


like when a parent shows favoritism
or expresses disappointment in a child



that child will have a desire to fulfill a parents expectations - and it dont matter if they are reasonable or not


this breeds a fleet of people who desire to do the systems bidding
even tho the system has everybody on the run feeling like criminals




the principle is fundamentally similar
but
there is more to it than that