Have we ever considered the fact that maybe.......

Think it def. comes down to who is choosing the beats for the project(s) . Rza still has dope beats and im sure can still make the same type beats from the early days. question is does he want to , does he need to , and is anyone asking him/ paying his fee for those type of beats. Other wu elements and close to the wu producers still making dope beats and probably have them in the stash too . But no doubt the paying for using other artists samples changed the game.

here are some older projects that production was dope by bronze , some wu elements on gza project , and supreme from sunz of man days .


67Mob - Raising the Bar - bronze nazareth

Supreme x Automatik Greatness - Rapoliticz

Supreme x Automatik Greatness - Exodus The Audio Revolution

Gza - ProTools - some wu elements

for honorable mention 2 projects from non wu producers but captured that dope wu sound.

Gza - Grandmasters

Joe Young - Invicible Armour

And yet the best Inspectah deck track post Uncontrolled Substance is A Lil Story. A « funeral » type beat produced by Cilvaringz. And judging by the youtube views, it's also one of his most popular tracks.

Deck’s solo career is disappointing. He falls into the Jadakiss category for me. Both have terrible ears for beats and never made a classic, but are obviously super dope MCs that kill it as a guest or in group setting. I’ve said it for years that at least Deck found CZARFACE. Have kept him relevant and energetic for most part. And 7L isn’t making “club” beats. Deck must have been under the influence when he said that or maybe he wanted to just be more relevant back then. Ringz, how long ago was that? Close to 20 years at this point? Peace

2013 i think

I was only off by 10 years, ha. Peace

Deck is an idiot for dismissing Cilva’s beats but then working with Czarface. Can’t believe no Wu member who heard the Shaolin album didn’t go “Yo Cilva, this shit sounds nice, I want this project to be my album.”

Masta Killa went with the same formula for No Said Date as other generals debuts. Why? Cause he knew that was what the fans wanted. This happened after they got released from Wu-productions or whatever the hell it was called. MK also had beats by Elements on his next album. Bronze was a perfect fit to his style. Both the grimey and the soulfull shit

I would say that Kiss Of Death is the closest thing that Jadakiss has to a classic.. He struck the balance between everything you need for a full package on that album, but it still gets slept on.

^It’s his best album I agree. Peace

I still heavily look forward to 4th Disciple’s production. He’s always been great but I think he’s so much better now than ever. The Algorythm was cool and he’s given Bugsy some dope beats. 4th has the best beat on ABT. I wish he would link with more mc’s and do albums with them. Whether it’s Wu, killed bees or even outside of all that.

@cilvaringz have you considered producing an album for someone or have anything like that in the works? Anything to look forward to?

Hollow- "There was a reason I DIDN'T bring up Immobalarity, Nigga Please and Blackout. I already debunked your argument. You said their second albums sisn't have Wu elements and I just showed and proved. Now you're reaching for straws saying "The other half of..." It DOESN'T MATTER. They were still using the Wu-Elements back then. I don't think it has anything to do with a "Wu-Tang Productions" contract. If your beats are hot then they're HOT."

*sigh* If you need specifics...

Part of the reason the Elements were so involved in the early goings was RZA was exec producing and got production control on most of these projects per contracts. So he'd bring the beats, including the outside producers to the table and have those be what the emcees chose from. You'd see it visualized on the show as the disk trays with member's names on them or heard the anecdotes of Rae taking Incarcerated Scarfaces from GZA's pile. This was not just to control the sound but to prevent situations like he & GZA had in prior experiences with labels forcing songs and producers on them. Post-Forever everything flipped from dictatorship to democracy, so the members were more in control of their own projects and picking their production. RZA could have put a more controlling hand in it due to contracts, but he let the crew do themselves and narrowed his focus to a few. The Elements are still close and Wu members have access to those beats, but they're doing their own things and other people are popping up so that's where you have other people taking hold of the musical direction. Example where Arabian Knight/Q-Base co-exec produced BTS and basically played the RZA role of getting all the music together for GZA, which is mainly him & Math.

Now, post-Wu Prods contract, they're their own free agents. They might have stipulations in their individual overall label deals that RZA/Wu gets a majority production (Meth mentioned something in his Def Jam deal about that being an option to exercise once) but RZA doesn't enforce it unless that's the route these artists want to go themselves. Also, without that control, labels can dictate and push for specific producers/guests that you might have to take on. Plus, you're no longer primarily all making music together so it comes more to who you're around to hear it. Back to GZA, Arabian Knight/Q-Base is back in control on LotLS. Jay Waxx Garfield is the brother of Geoffrey L Garfield, GZA's one time manager, plus just got mainstream success w/ Bad Boy. Bink was hot off The Blueprint and Wu got one of his beats a lead single early w/ Uey, so there's a connect there with mainstream buzz and BOOLA was another Roc camp connection brought inside, plus Jaz-O who put Jay-Z on. So do you understand the sound they're going for there? While Just & Ye will always admit Supreme sparked them, GZA's not going through beats w/ RZA like Ghost did- he & AK (and maybe MCA) are grabbing up the affordable Blueprint adjacent producers for this project.

To keep with the GZA thread, what happens for Pro Tools? New label, Dreddy A&Ring, and that's how you get Bronze & Preservation involved because they were working with Dreddy on Babygrande at the time- not because GZA's listening to and rejecting Wu Elements beats until now. True's back in again for this & CL2 sessions and gets 2 beats mislabeled as RZA's for his efforts. Math's there because he's around, Choco gets a beat in because he's always around while engineering. 4th is in Ohio at this point so I have no clue what of his is even getting to anyone- fuck, he made a (well produced) side-project about feeling like a orphan to the Wu Family. So much of this is about proximity and availability to these emcees when they're doing these projects, not about them churning through and rejecting beat tapes.

Also part of it is, like Cilva mentioned, industry drastically changes, production budget is more scrutinized as it's your recoupable advance which you aren't likely to make back in this market & the Elements have asking prices that, even with friends and family discounts might be more risky than spending that bread on a known name. Although it's easier in this era where you accept the music more as a loss leader to advertise for your touring and merch, but, then again, Wu tends to be content with doing that as a legacy act than dropping that much new. Also, while we might know and revere the heat the Elements dropped in their prime, you do realize there's a laaarge contingent that doesn't look at credits and just always assumed most Wu related stuff of an era is just RZA beats? That's hurt their ability to get placement outside the Wu as much as anything.

Cilva- "Truth be told, the reach out to the Elements was never really much from the Clan unless RZA pushed for it when he was overseeing the albums. Dudes wanted RZA beats, they wanted those disks from his magic box. I remember personally when 4th sent some beats to Meth and I was sure he would use that first one on that disk but it never happened. Then again, there's another thing yall should know. When the Elements send beats, which I know they did when I was around in the early 2000s, you'd sometimes hear shit and be like "really, that's the one you sent?"

Something people don't understand is while the consumer hears only the end product, the producer is crafting something from blank slate to idea to working the idea to the final product. So the producer's enjoyment or evaluation of that final beat may involve all those steps along the way that you might never be part of when just hearing a beat play so it's a completely different experience. Like one thing to notice is take 4th's old mp3.com Steel Valley Project release. Each one of those tracks is very weird and varied and while I enjoy a lot of them, it's a very odd and disjointed project. But, you look at it from his perspective where he's doing this producer's showcase, showing range and musical manipulation and you get what he's going for.

And regarding the general talk on Deck and his ear for beats- his own best stuff is what he produced for others as opposed to pick for himself which should tell you something.

Decks last album had pretty dope beats if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Cilvaringz

Truth be told, the reach out to the Elements was never really much from the Clan unless RZA pushed for it when he was overseeing the albums. Dudes wanted RZA beats, they wanted those disks from his magic box. I remember personally when 4th sent some beats to Meth and I was sure he would use that first one on that disk but it never happened. Then again, there's another thing yall should know. When the Elements send beats, which I know they did when I was around in the early 2000s, you'd sometimes hear shit and be like "really, that's the one you sent?"

I've been at 4th Chamber in Ohio a few times, spent days listening to that man's catalogue and there's some amazing stuff in there, more amazing than anything they came with later from other producers. But 4th doesn't make 10 Soldiers a day. True doesn't make 10 Fish a day. Like any other producer there's a bunch of meh stuff and the occassional blow your mind ones. And then you got to see if Meth or Deck could really lace a Wu-Renegades beat or if they'll fit much better with the affiliates.

So then 4th and True might put together a batch that in your head you would never select, and send them to the Clan. True and 4th and multiplatinu producers as well, so now there's a signficant enough fee to consider. True and 4th stuff don't knock in the clubs... some of these brothers wanna hit the clubs. Never forget what Deck said to me about the Magnificent Butchers off OUATIS: "I just came from the club son, these 16, 18 year olds ain't rocking with this graveyard music son."

That's a true quote.

Which, in conclusion means this... I believe, personally, that most of these brothers never really knew what sonic formula made them great. They'll probably know it and feel it once they hear it, but Priest and Darkman didn't hang around the Forever sessions just for nothing. There were, according to reports, plenty of times that beats played and brothers didn't feel them until Darkman or Priest rhymed on them and suddenly the potential came into sight, and they got thrown off.

Winter Warz, Supa Ninjaz, Cash Still Rules were all LA The Darkman songs.

What it really takes is a bunch of money, a bunch of old rhymebooks, and a bunch of old beats from the stash, one mansion outside the US and lets gooooo.

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Interesting stuff about the songs you listed being LA The Darkman songs originally and that Priest/Darkman had to spit first before anyone recognised the potential of certain beats.

The Generals have pretty poor beat selection throughout their post-RZA produced careers and something that always bothered me is the lack of energy on the mic from some of them in the 2000's runs, no matter how meh a beat is a rapper can still somewhat save it with energy but if they're going through the motions I'll skip that truck or album.

I've listened to very little hip hop in the last 15-20 years, but yeah, the Wu elements stuff I've heard is not outstanding. Bronze is usually really good. Like his first album was a real banga. But that's a long thyme ago. Haven't really heard much since then. That recent Bugsy album has really good production, but it's not amazing or anything.

But yeah, the recent Cilva/Sunz track was dope. You all would've loved it if it had come out back in the day when that sound was fresh. You're lying to yourself if you pretend otherwise. It was a very successful replication of that old, dark 90's vibe.

Quote:

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What it really takes is a bunch of money, a bunch of old rhymebooks, and a bunch of old beats from the stash, one mansion outside the US and lets gooooo.

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even if this equation produced a Wu-Forever part 2 type album, I don't personally think it would go anywhere sadly. If Deck and the others believed in it back when OATIS was a new thing it could've done very well IMO but Wu is now past the time where even the best possible album they could do wouldnt get any listeners and even most Wu fans would barely care.

The insight into Wu members not having an ear for dope beats only solidifies my thoughts that RZA never shorted anybody and deserves everything he ever got and then some though

Hollow Fartz is still here? Peace gawd.

Wu Elements fell off a long time ago, been probably a good 10 years since I checked for anything. Even at its peak, there was a lot of average stuff to wade through

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Durag

Hollow Fartz is still here? Peace gawd.

Wu Elements fell off a long time ago, been probably a good 10 years since I checked for anything. Even at its peak, there was a lot of average stuff to wade through

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How original.

Anyways, I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Once again, this isn't a "diss wu" topic this is just something I thought of for awhile now. Like I mentioned earlier, there's dozen of producers (Alchemist, Premier, Madlib etc..) that people are still working with and reaching out to for beats because there stuff is fire. If Wu elements were still bringing the heat, why aren't they being used? Most hip hop heads group up off Wu they read the album credits..I appreciate the insights from buddah and cilva definitely interesting. LA is still on cash rules at the end of Meth's verse so that makes sense and it Makes even more sense why after the 5 year plan shit was never the same. It's funny, you're kind of seeing the same thing with griselda. Benny and Conway are starting to branch off and West isn't really spearheading their projects anymore and they don't have the same "spark" to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Daniel Davis

I would say that Kiss Of Death is the closest thing that Jadakiss has to a classic.. He struck the balance between everything you need for a full package on that album, but it still gets slept on.

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I agree. Kiss da game goodbye has all his best commercial songs on it but the album as a whole isn't great.