don't you imbesils realize that our society was built on religon and ignorance? what makes you think you can do a complete 180 after thousands of years of complacency?
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don't you imbesils realize that our society was built on religon and ignorance? what makes you think you can do a complete 180 after thousands of years of complacency?
i think the opposite is true - you're limiting your own. it's actually quite hard to understand what you're talking about because you're generally quite vague. that in turn inflames people, then when you lash back at them with all this high and mighty shit, it makes you look like a dick and makes them pissed off. philosophise, with my blessing, but you should be prepared to explain your thoughts to the layman of your mind, e.g everyone else apart from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
i beleive my utopia is possible, but only through generations of hard work to get us there.Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
What makes you think WE are going to do anything.Quote:
what makes you think you can do a complete 180
A grand house made of all the expensive materials found in the world no matter how sturdy will surely collapse eventually if the foundation is weak.
I don't lash at anybody, it's you that is lashing at me, I'm simply making statements on an internet forum. Whatever context you want to notice is a reflection of your own state of mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by arto
are you saying I lash out at people?Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
and you do you really think generations and generations of people are going to sacrifice the sole life they are blessed with? especially with all the luxuries and potential prosperities that lies all around them get real. i spoke on this in a thread just like this recently. revolting is an instinct, not an idea. I don't know where you reside, but if you're here on the internet able to express your opinion or even have the luxury to have a computer to communicate on, you don't have it that bad. Revolting is an act of a group of people with their backs against the wall feeling no where to turn. I strongly doubt that any of us here on this forum are experiencing that
y'see this's what i'm talking about. make your statements clearer, then people won't need to question them as much. like what you said, especially the last snetence, could be taken a number of ways, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
i think you're right. people would need to have the sort of society we are suggesting forced on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
also, my back isn't quite yet against the wall, maybe a few inches away though.
or if you truly believe what you're saying, give up all the unnecessary possesions and stimulants you own right now as we speak
nice, I'll look into it some timeQuote:
Originally Posted by arto
the point is you can't. i think it's good being fundamental, but it's not good being too fundamental. like if i was purely fundamental with my beliefs, i'd be smashing this computer up. you can truly believe in something without getting into semantics about it, and without going too far as to inconvenience your life, because you won't get anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
Did you ever think that that's the point? The difference between me and you is, I'm making statements that spark thought. You on the other hand are stating "facts" in an attempt to win an argument. Right now you are trying to draw me into an argument, unsucessfully at that, because I'm no longer going to respond to you.Quote:
y'see this's what i'm talking about. make your statements clearer, then people won't need to question them as much. like what you said, especially the last snetence, could be taken a number of ways, really.
Marauder, PEACE.
I understand where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to say is, I doubt people are going to just give up their luxuries too, but in a couple years luxuries aren't going to exist.
there is some good points being made here
but
the discussion is getting nowhere
we should flush out the points being made here
theres about a half dozen people comin from different angles
we are talking about
possessions
laws
ambitions
etc
lets narrow it all down
break it down for us L
dude! i am so not trying to argue with you! i'm just trying to explain to you why people are getting a little tetchy at you!Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
be cool, my friend. there's no hard feelings on this side. peace.
LHX, i wanna hear more from your brain, my friend. i've only been here a few days and i already sense the intellect behind your sayings. why don't you start us off with something?
None on this side either.
I don't mind if people get angry at my statements, it's their view point. As you can see by my text I'm very calm (lol).
I appologize if I come off high and mighty, I assure you I love you all like you were my flesh and blood and would never place you above or below me.
me personally, i wouldn't smash the computer. i would embrace it. disregarding the shallow (but humorous) things we receive on the net, this is an extremely powerful tool. whats makes this world go round are consumers. corporations sell and we buy. well take a good look at the crap society buys. quite frankly 95 to 99% of it we don't need, but hey we like these things. I like my ipod, i like my guitar, i like my TV and my Acura. I like my nextel phone, i like pizza and strawberry shakes. So call me a victim of the Matrix as you please lol
yeah dude, that's how i feel. i think you think in a similar way to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
is cool. you gain my respect for believing in what you say, brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
hahaaaaaQuote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
90 posts is a lot to go thru
the main question seems to be this
what constitutes 'life on earth'?
what are these 'arts and sciences' that people deem important?
is life itself not an art and science?
what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?
and as for my original hunch -
if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence
maybe everybody should state in a few words what their point of view is on those issues
maybe we need to open a new thread
marauder
arto
denaturat
tek
drop some feedback
where are we disagreeing?
I understand 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
The thing is I don't have most of these things, I think internet is probably one of my only luxuries. I don't even have food as a luxury, just before I went to the supermarket with my family's last 7 dollars till friday to attempt to purchase something for dinner with just 3 of those dollars so that my mother can use the other 4 to put what little amount of gas she possibly can in her tank to get to work. Nothing luxurious about my lifestyle. I don't own a home phone, I don't own a car, basically since I was about 12 years old my only possessions were the clothes on my back. I would just bounce back and forth between homes with a small garbage bag containing a couple of my belongings, but I never held onto a possession for over a year.
I remember at one point in time my room was just completely empty with a sleeping bag in the corner, I lived like that for almost a year.
are you suggesting that we misused our God given intelligence? that we corrupted it with greed and gluttony? that we used it for our own personal advantage instead of shedding light on the ignorant? that we forgot to show peace and love to all instead of going by Survival of The Fittest.
In lamest terms, that's what i think went wrong
trust me dude, just about everybody spends money they don't have. they have all this shit but they're choking trying to stay above water, struggling to pay bills and paying their debts. it's disgusting and i hate it with a passion. the consumers are highly responsible for their own dumb actions and corporations are blood suckers. all this because people try to fill a certain void that they can't pin point what it is.
that void is from within. i can't even put it into words what it is, but i certainly feel it inside me
I'd say that is definately one of the main problems in the downfall of society. Everybody has such a dog eat dog mentality, and I understand the origin of it all... It's from other people's dog eat dog mentality's. Think about it... Did you ever have somebody come up to you and say something along these lines, "I used to try to help people but everybody only cares about themselves and you wind up getting stepped on, so now I only look out for myself.", Well they just explained why everybody only looks out for themselves, because they have the same mentality as them!Quote:
Peace and Love to all instead of going by Survival of The Fittest.
well i think we're disagreeing because we don't know where the others are at. so i'll tell you all what i think, and you can take what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
i think we need to break society down, socially and politically, right down to the roots. i think we should all live in mud huts on the beaches of liberia. seriously. we should grow crops, and sing songs and sleep. we should gain wisdom from our brothers and sisters and our elders. we should pass wisdom onto others. we should respect all mankind and all nature. we should have no laws, no police and no money, or rather, money only in moderation (but thats a different discussion altogether)
we should study the stars, the ocean, the sun, the seasons, the animals, the plants. we should love one another as we would like to be loved. we should get rid of all the trappings of 21st century life.
to do this, though, we need a massive, and i mean collosal societal overhaul, which will take decades, even centuries to complete. this means that us, the freethinkers of a linear thinking society, will never see our utopia, but will will plant the seeds for our children to carry on our legacy, to finally arrive at a utopian ideal.
what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?
i totally agree with this statement, and i beleive some core issues should be addressed before we can think about that next ivory backscratcher.
if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence
i think we could, i think it's possible, but you need tremdous willpower and the co-operation of everyone else to make it work.
I feel whole, I just wish I could eat more! The only thing I desire is to be able to get up and build with my people everyday. If I could come home from work hit somebody up and create a cypher and freestyle for 1 or 2 hours I'm happy, and I can go to sleep feeling good. Material items are of no conscern to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
hell yea this a cut-throat world. personally i've done alot of deeds and given helping hands to friends and family. Yet the only thing that stuck with them was the negativity that i might of provided them. People always remember the bad shit and NEVER the good; and that's word to me.
this is a "what about me?" world, and that's never going to change. which is why this thread is obsolete; but it's healthy to talk about this kind of shit anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez
i couldnt' agree with you more. unfortunately all of that was taken away from me; so the whip, good credit and money in my pocket doesn't do much for me at all. it's all good tho, marauder staying strong
i don't think the thread is obsolete. if we can change at least one person's perspective on the way they lead their life, that's enough. if we can get people to challenge the very core essence of their society, then we're not pumping hot air in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by marauder1
building with yall motherfuckers is the only good thing i experience most days
but if you want topple ideas you need to have the ability to rebuild. if I say down with A, it is eqully important to be able to show that B is better. if you are in the middle of the ocean on shoddy wooden raft that goes nowhere, you need to find a new vessel before you completely distroy the one you are using.Quote:
Originally Posted by arto
all of this that takes a lot of learning and thinking. it's something that I personally pursue, but I have not yet figured out with absolute certainty how an ideal society should be organized. the journey of investigating involves questioning everything, not just the status quo but the proposed alternatives.
when i question your posts it is not for the purpose of attacking you personally put for the purpose of testing your ideas to see if they withstand objections. that is a basic dialectic method of ancient greeks such as socrates and is just as useful today. in the process you learn, even where you disagree with someone.
^so what conclusions have you come to so far with your ponderings?
by shunning desire, wouldn't that like diminsh a vital part of existence?, yeah late to discussion and all. but to shun desire is not on par with luxury.
desire what's good. not all luxuries good. it becomes a value question. it's value to you and what kind of future investment you can get out.
in this day and age, the basics are luxuries in the foirst world - which purports the biggest machine that sells them.
before you acquire an item you have some desire. it doesn't have to be over the top luxury. that would be not discerning wants/needs from crass consumerism.
what is your insight on the difference between desire and need?Quote:
Originally Posted by galt john galt
I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Unseen
Well thought out. I couldn't agree more. I dont think you can force an entirely different life style on a whole nation of people and expect to them to accept it without serious resistance. I think a lot of the things you think a society would need are answered by capitalism. It provides people the opportunity to do whatever it is that they desire. The problem is that corperate greed has driven everything to a state of excess that is balanced out by abject poverty. I'd like to see things come closer to the middle. All my thoughts revolve around ways to make it happen.Quote:
I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed.
I think this may be solved within the current system, for example legislating laws that are environmentally friendly and that adress the practical inequality of opportunity. Better funding for those who cannot afford education (not just loans, but funding and allowance like they have in parts of Europe). When more young people are in school and have at least some money from the government, they will be less involved in crime, thus there would be less strain on the criminal justice system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Unseen
I'm cool with tax breaks for small private corporations, but something has to be done with the way public corporations use their money. There could be more socially beneficial uses for that. I don't think that white collar types should make the same money as a grocery store cashier. They're jobs require skill and involve stress and they should be compensated proportionally.
I think the bottom line is gradual redistribution of wealth, but a redistribution that is still fair and practical. In canada for example, skilled workers make pretty good money. I think they should be paid well. I also think it is fair for a professional to be paid a bit more.
the obstacle: we do not have parties which inspire confidence that they will deliver such a comprehensive package. it is still a radical change. and even if you have a good party, people need to vote them in. only then can they pass laws I outlined above.
I know a lot of people here criticise consumerist society and I see the argument. but liberal capitalist democracy does not prevent anyone from leading a spiritual no materialistic lifestyle. Even if you overthrow the system, do you think all will suddenly achieve enlightenement and become poets and philosphers? there are still many people who are happy with multicoloured cell phones, old navy and clubbing. capitalism exists because people want stuff. although, I admit capitalism has a way of convincing people that they should buy more than they need. well, we don't have to give in to advertising, do we? it's choice.
I also find that as you succeed in modern society, that is even if you start at the bottom and move your way up, there are less incentives for you to make changes in favour of those that are less advantaged. you get a false sense of entitlement. but maybe even though you were poor, there were subtle advantages you had that others didn't. maybe you were smarter or more motivated. but just becuase you are it does not mean others do not deserve the same level of happiness as you do. there must be a minimum standard for all.
...this is all open to debate.