I alwasy listen to RZA's birth of a prince album before I start class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMESH
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I alwasy listen to RZA's birth of a prince album before I start class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMESH
thanks for clearing that up manQuote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
the children can sleep peacefully tonite
Cultures practice religions, your just being silly again. Are the lines between are culture and religion are so intertwined that it's our way of life and that's how he refer to it, i'm sure 5% can relate.....again. We've been though this shit before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
your welcome, and sleep tight...don't let the bed bugs bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
Obvious you don't know what the two words mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charging Soldier
Parallel case to people having different meaning to the original question of this thread: distinguishing spirituality and religion....some have different views and think they are distinct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
Who can distinguish these terms the best? who is right at the end? the authors of the English dictionary?
Spirituality, religion, culture....they're not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolifical ENG
As far as defining these terms, they're already defined. People want to utilize they're interpretation/understanding/misunderstanding of what these words mean to suite their ideas/motives or whatever.
They aren't the same, however they do have some overlap in characteristics. What people argue is exactly how they overlap, or if one term a subset of the other term. Also if the definition is too broad or narrow also has to be considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
This overlap is the confusing part of everything and why there is some broken communication in this thread. Some people believe that their definitions are "correct" and the others have comprehension problems. This approach will take us nowhere.
I guess you are right that sometimes people deliberately try to equivocate terms. But on the other hand, sometimes another closely related conceptual word doesn't suit their ideas/motives and they use one largely known word and use it to try to keep things simple. In many cases their ideas are still valid if most of the population understands.
As far as things already defined, concepts are NEVER defined precisely no matter what dictionaries you look in. There might have been attempts in this thread to interpret things, but so far not everyone has been convinced or else this thread would have stopped.
does this guy have the same ip address as Goddess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
this seems to be a monthly thing...
some sort of cycle...
but religions exist beyond culture's borders, which are geographic. religion's borders are in the mind and much different person to person. example, you have American culture (if you wanna call it culture:no: ) which is not only home to christians but muslims, hindu, even buddhists and radical cultists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charging Soldier
the culture is the congregation of all these things, as well as others, isnt it? my problem with religion is its historical application and what it represents in our past, in my opinion. it can confine the mind... but dont forget that for those who actually believe in it, it provides a healthy source of hope, something athiests (term used loosely) dont have much of.
last point - i think someone's religious belief system, in whatever shape or form, is as predictable as their social patterns and basic personality - all shaped by experience and genes? we also have to realize that the majority of the people in the world today think less deeply into shit of this importance.
peace
I think religion exists to protect us from spirituality. We, meaning mankind in general, contructed it so as to appease our curiousity about the spiritual world and guide us in the absence of this knowledge. The way the world REALLY works and methods of manipulation of its workings is not knowledge meant for everyone. Personally, I'm not sure if I'd inflict that knowledge on ANYONE.
religion is the root of all evil. money too.
I disagree. They don't have overlapping characteristics, however, due to misinterpretations/misunderstandings or just not knowing (what they mean) they are used interchangleble.Quote:
They aren't the same, however they do have some overlap in characteristics.
I agree with you here. Especially with the believing part.Quote:
Some people believe that their definitions are "correct" and the others have comprehension problems. This approach will take us nowhere.
It's easy for the majority of a population to understand when they all running around with misinformation. America, a christian nation. Do you think the majority of people are going to understand ideas/words outside of that?Quote:
I guess you are right that sometimes people deliberately try to equivocate terms. But on the other hand, sometimes another closely related conceptual word doesn't suit their ideas/motives and they use one largely known word and use it to try to keep things simple. In many cases their ideas are still valid if most of the population understands.
Again, gotta disagree(some words are defined with a bias slant to it, but english is a biased language). Every word is a concept which has meaning and the word is used to convey the individuals concept or idea. That's language. Words are used to express an idea, and each word has a meaning.Quote:
As far as things already defined, concepts are NEVER defined precisely no matter what dictionaries you look in.
The dictionary/encyclopedia and other reference books with a similiar nature of a dictioanary may not be exact, it's a universal foundation for people who speak the language in which the dictionary is written to agree on the meaning of the word. That way there can be communication. People choose not to accept specific words (religion, culture, spirit(uality), ethnicity, nation, nationality) for various reasons some you probably know and some may be unknown.
good add on.
peace.
I didn't start the thread, but since you want to single me out for participating, is it not allowed of me to participate in these threads?Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
Another moderator pretty much agreed with what I said, so what's the problem LHX?
Religion: Answers to questions we'll never know for the scared and ignorant
Why is it then, within the institution of religion, it's normal to hear, "don't question either god or the book they accept as the word of god" and when questions are asked, the answer is normally, "just have faith." Where's the answers???Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMethods
Look up a concept in the dictionary, all they can do is briefly explain it with referring to another concept (perhaps if you really don't know the other concept, you need to look up that one too). Since it was used to describe that concept, they are closely related. For example, "who is a 'weirdo' and who is 'eccentric'? There are differences, but there is overlap in these terms too. For the case in this thread its just simply a disagreement in the differences and similarities of the more difficult concepts being described, hence it is very difficult for all parties to convince each other and it can only be left at that.
It is true that people do use some terms interchangeable when they shouldn't and sometimes it makes a flaw in their argument, and other times it can be used to test the validity of a statement someone made. For example, Charging Soldier thought he could use the term "male" when you were using the word "man" and you [Black Man] used that word for a reason. There can be overlap in those 2 words since one might say "a man is a human adult male so all men are males" However there was an obvious misconception there. Charging Solider implied that " black man" is a subset of "black male", but (for that case discussed anyway) there was a distinct difference in the context. Therefore he may have been testing the validity of the statement by switching to another close term. However the rebuttal was just a false implication. Two differences in understandings of terms.
However I guess its the way we have been taught how to make "interesting writing" by using more than one redundant word. We always need to be careful when explaining validity from making what you write/say sound better to the audience.
I'll have to agree with this, but leave out "ignorant", only because some people may not have a depth of understanding as others.Quote:
Originally Posted by LikwidSwordz
Like Rakim said, "He Is What Always Was." To give a broader example, one of the recitations that Muslims recite during prayer reads, "Be begetteth not, nor is He begotten and there is none comparable unto Him."
In truth, to ask who created The Creator is a bit comical. Think about it, just look at the question, "Who created THE CREATOR?" It makes no sense really. I understand that asking questions may be easier for most than actually following a doctrine, but certain questions make others question your reason for asking to begin with and what was on your mind when you asked.
If I were to say, "No one created The Creator.", by and large, the respose would be, "How do you know." Proving that one party has faith and the other doesn't. So, the answer to that question depends entirely on you as far as personal satisfaction. It doesn't change anything really, because while people will say, "That's your opinion and I'm entitled to mine." There's always 3 sides to a story. My side, your side and the truth. The paradox is that one of the first two sides is kith and kin to the last.
This, in my opinion, is a clear cut case of disbelief. For which there is no remedy outside of the person or persons affected.
i deny jesus christ the deceiver and i abjure the christian faith, holding in contempt all of its works. by the symbol of the creator, i swear henceforth to be a faithful servant of his most puissant archangel, the prince Lucifer.
kiss the goat!
This is not a definitionQuote:
Originally Posted by beautifulrock
this forum is awful,
it used to be ok 3 years ago
im not singling you out for participatingQuote:
Originally Posted by Black Man
im singling you out because your responses are weak sometimes
its trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
there are so many elements at work obscuring a deeper understanding of the life experience other than the conventional 'run away from bad things' and 'chase your desires'
intellectually, we all know that a fear of death is unreasonable, and we all know that hate, lust and jealousy are unreasonable
BUT
a mechanism is in place to keep these things around
within the span of seven breaths, a person can tell you that jealousy is bad and then have a moment where he sees something/thinks of something that causes him to be motivated by jealousy
it is some form of schizophrenia - a split mind
tying this all back to the god question:
it is the same element at work
people ask what god is - meanwhile they are god themselves
god trying to define itself
and the issue has been so twisted and confused that people just dont understand the foundation that allows them to even ask the question 'what is god?'
this is one extended period of adjustment
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsRzaRecTaH
exactly.....................HOPE=LIFE
"22:73 O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!"Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
The Quran -Translation Chapter: Al-Hajj
ur a god?
create something then!
snatch something from an insect!!!
Oh what did I start!! I mean.. Im sorry for opening a thread like this...
but these are questions that Im pretty sure are on peoples thoughts...
people wonder about this all the time. .I thank you all for your opinions and insight.. I dont think its a boring topic though
Do you believe everything in the bible??Quote:
Originally Posted by LikwidSwordz
why do you underestimate yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
just because you forgot how to do it doesnt mean you cant do it
give yourself some credit
all you need is some time and practice
we are all rooting for you
Time, practice and better drugs.
Religion= mythological struture in which to frame history, and psychological and mystical experiences. A collection of symbols basicly. Problem of our age= taken literally.
Easy ya ahki. I feel your frustration, but you gotta remember that some people just don't know. Knowledge comes in degrees, but these days, people have the choice of knowing or not knowing. Some seek their own truth and some seek THE truth. You, me and those who claim divinity know that no one down here can create as The Creator can Create. Sure, we can build, grow and shape, but all of this takes time. None of us can think of what we want and say, "Be!", then have it appear right? Patience is key yo. Prophet Isa, peace be upon him once said, "There are two kinds of people in the world, the sick and the healthy. Be merciful to the sick and give thanks to God for health."Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
I still gotta cop your album too son. I ain't forgot about you.
Peace
just dont know what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
that man is only limited by his own imagination?
you wanna see me create a fly?
lets finish tearing down this society and then go live in a garden for a few hundred years
ill make you all sorts of flies
even let you name them
Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by LHX
It's an eerie feeling to see what you've read manifested before your very eyes.
Qur'an-16:4 "He Created man from a drop of fluid, yet lo! he stands forth as an open opponent!":yessad:
Now, with all due respect, I was talking to Rah, not you. I have no need to explain it because he'll know what I mean because it was meant for people like him. If you don't like it then I can't help you.
The fact of the matter is, you can't create anything on a the level that's being discussed. Regardless of what you say. You don't have that kind of power. It's not creating a fly, it's snatching something from a fly that was the challenge. Read the parable, it says, "O Mankind...", not just one person. Which clearly tells you, no one in the history of human events was ever able to do what is being described. All anyone will ever be able to do is say, "I could do it if I felt like it, I just don't want to right now." Which is even more comical than the subject at hand in my opinion.
The point of the parable, since it seems to escape people even now, is that there is none outside of The Most High that mankind chooses to call upon besides Him that can create anything. That includes the statues, plants and various people that people choose to pray to other than God Himself. Personally, I could care less what you do with your own time, because it doesn't affect me either way. This was to explain the point Rah was trying to make to those less inclined to think. Or, perhaps, those afraid to do so on this particular subject. The same helplessness we have in divine creation is the same we have in snatching something from a fly. The snatching from the fly would be easier because at least we can grasp what we're trying to do. Creation is an act of sheer will. In our case, it's an act of will, study, and hard work. No one down here can say one word, just one word, and have whatever they thought of, be it a fly or a new continent, appear all of a sudden. That kind of power wasn't given to us and the more I observe people's behavior, the happier I am that the lot of us have forgotten about the powers that we DO have. The idea that it's possible for mankind, a creature barely in control of itself, to do such things, reminds me a bit of Greco-Roman mythology. I.E. it's completely absurd.
Say what you will, you can't create anything that you aren't allowed to create. Even when it's created, it eventually passes away due to imperfection. The world we live in is a sign in itself because it has more than one world within it. On land, we have certain creatures and environments. Under the land, we have completely different creatures and environments. Under the sea is a whole nother world as well. Species of creatures still roam all 3 worlds that haven't been identified by our precious scientists to this day. Mankind had absolutely NOTHING to do with the creation of these worlds or the creatures in them. If anything, we have a direct claim to their destruction. We feel that because we're at the top of the food chain, we're above creation all together. Forgetting all too often that when we die, our bodies return to the same patch of dirt from which they came. It would take years for any one of us to be able to create another living thing from sheer 'handiwork'. Look at cloning and you'll see another group of people in desperate need to play God. Even so, that's not real power. The day a man, woman, child or beast, raises forth their hand/paw/tentacle etc. and reverses the cycle of the sun, changes the seasons in the blink of an eye, or raises the Atlanteans from the dead so they can tell us word for word how their nation perished, then I'll believe they have power, but if they can't, and they most certainly can't, then they should be wary of what they say.
I'm with LHX on this one. The issue isn't what we can or can't create. The issue is whether or not we can reach consensus on what has and hasn't been created. That means that we're not looking for the existence of any particular thing, but instead measuring the depth of its existence. Does it exist in relationship to an individual? A collection of individuals? Or perhaps "all" individuals? The power of God isn't creation, but persuasion.
To what end?? You make it sound as if He needs us to believe in him. The power of God is manifested in everything seen and unseen. Known and unknown. Creation is the foundation of all of the above mentioned fields. This is where belief and disbelief begin to manifest as well, apparently. One thing is certain, all the people who thrive on "what ifs", I'd pay good money to see their faces when death approaches because with such care-free and pseudo-philosophical convictions ans beliefs, they shouldn't be afraid of a damn thing at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Os3y3ris
its not a matter of liking it or disliking itQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
its a matter of calling nonsense nonsense
LHX-42:7 "He calleth bullshit wherever it may appeareth, and seeks not to duck away from those crafty in speech, who would have the people settle for something lessereth than what they areth"
and i dont oppose the most high
i spend every breath seeking to understand him/it better and i understand enuf not to sell myself short
lmfaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
my challenge still stands
lets finish dismantling this society
lets find heaven
and THEN i will listen to you tell me what i can and cannot do
i dont see what is scary about complete submission to something bigger than youQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
its reassuring
it also makes you not afraid to be attacked and persecuted in the court of public perception
its on you if you are afraid to accept the responsibility for everything there is, has been, or will be
its definitely not possible for somebody with your mentalityQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
you can create 47 universes in the time it takes to excrete your morning shit
i agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
swing and a missQuote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
you can create things that endure
you doubt my ability to 'snatch something from a fly'Quote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
i put it on you to provide a visual demonstration of these '3 worlds' and something travelling thru them
you trying to convince the forum? or yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher
Quote:
The power of God isn't creation, but persuasion.
this forum used to be quite intellectual...now we are reduced to statements like this...if youve got a point to make about GOD, try and bring some evidence, otherwise your just a donkey carrying words.
Slasher, jazakhallah kheir for expanding on my post...im not frustrated, it was more a figure of speech...the bottom line is, we are laymen and not scholars, therefore if we seek a path of knowledge, it must be gradual. How are you gonna get someone whos lived a mentally "dead" life (not referring to anyone) to suddenly start callin himself a manifestation of God, and start dwelling on topics which he shouldnt be dwelling on, since his understanding is lacking, and this will surely lead one to deviation.
For example, in the issue of "god within us" this is a fancy statement that "gurus" and religious men love to use to attract followers. Either this or the subject has been misinterpreted throughout the ages. This may be due to a lack of knowledge or understading on the part of the person.
I found a much more intellectually defined answer, in the teachings of the righteous Sufis, who uphold a doctrine that these bogus gurus only wish they could.
GOD/ALLAH, has 99 names, of which these names are attributes. These attributes manifest themselves in various aspects of Creation. For example, if you see a beautiful rose, that is a manifestation of "Beautiful" and Allah/God is "Most Beautiful". If you see wisdom in a man...that is a manifestation of "Wise" and Allah/God is "Most Wise"...all of Creation except man represents certain attributes, but man has been blessed to represent all of them. But you can only reach this state from true and total submission to God, finding your path to God, as it frees man from his evil desires of "self". This is a path which, only very disciplined people succeed in taking.
LHX, i think your points have a basis, yet are in the wrong, due to your lack of understanding, or reading from the wrong sources. Me myself, have very limited knoweldge too, and even explaining what i explained is going "over" what i should be writing about. Yet, i think you'll agree it is a deeper meaning to what you suggested, and i hope you study the field more, this goes for myself too.
here are a couple of good links:
http://www.humanevol.com/doc/doc200207291196.html
http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml
http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2007...ibutes-on.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muraqabah
PEACE
Peace Quest - i will respond to you more later
hopefully you will stick around but i have to run right now
i would like to continue this dialog tho - i dont think its all bad
part of it is you yourself taking responsibility to improve things
Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
low blow
a scholar seeks to be a layman and seeks to reduce things to terms that can be understood by laymenQuote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
also:
its not that it must be gradual - its just that its more comfortable when its gradual
severe trauma, near-death experiences, and poverty all have a way of fast-forwarding the process
this is trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
and it is unfortunate that such a truth has been manipulated for individual gain
trust it - those people suffer, have suffered, and will continue to suffer for leading others astray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
just so everybody knows - Sufis are human beings just like everybody else
personally, i love and respect sufism and if forced to put a conventional label on myself, it would be a toss up between a Sufi and a Taoist
which is basically the same thing at root
i am very familiar with the 99+1 attributesQuote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
thats why i understand that if my motives are in the right place and i seek to do right, that even if i fuck it up, i will still be forgiven and loved unconditionally
thats dad we are talking about here
right now he wants us to clean up the house
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
all day every day
that is not a exaggeration
dont make the error of projecting your own perceived shortcomings on others
more and more - this insistence of a 'higher power' than self is looking like a cop out on the behalf of people who are looking for a scape goat rather than facing their responsibility for the universe
i will check those linksQuote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Armz
here are some for you:
www.subgenius.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor
http://myspace-735.vo.llnwd.net/0058...83458735_l.jpg
most of the time, a scholar has been a layman, before he becomes a scholar. What i mean by the original statement, is that some issues are for scholarly debate, and if debated by laymen should have some evidence to back it up. Also not every scholar seeks to make his work understandable to laymen. Some scholars dont allow laymen to read their books.Quote:
a scholar seeks to be a layman and seeks to reduce things to terms that can be understood by laymen
In the context you understood my point i agree. In the context that i meant, is people should start with certain basics, before moving on higher knowledge.Quote:
also:
its not that it must be gradual - its just that its more comfortable when its gradual
i didnt say they were divine. I said some groups methods is the one i look up to. Some Sufis i have doubts about.Quote:
just so everybody knows - Sufis are human beings just like everybody else
theres a difference between loving and respecting, and actually believing what they believe, and acting upon that. I think thats more important.Quote:
personally, i love and respect sufism and if forced to put a conventional label on myself, it would be a toss up between a Sufi and a Taoist
My arguement is that there is only one GOD. Not in any other other context, such as within, without, external, internal. But one GOD who Created man, because He said so! Therefore if you say your familiar with 99 names, you would see the complexity of creation and not make statements dangerous to your "self".Quote:
i am very familiar with the 99+1 attributes
thats why i understand that if my motives are in the right place and i seek to do right, that even if i fuck it up, i will still be forgiven and loved unconditionally
well, i realise and i hope you realise, that the more you learn, the more you find out how much you dont know. Also im always careful to stress that i am no scholar, just a student of the universe, therefore i approach my limited knowledge humbly.Quote:
dont make the error of projecting your own perceived shortcomings on others
In contrast, the God fearing peoples of say Medieval Islam, made an obligation to study the sciences of life, and they progressed greatly inspiring the european renaissance. I think the point you make has some interesting issues we should deal with, but one who understands the majesty of the creator will seek to find, no?Quote:
more and more - this insistence of a 'higher power' than self is looking like a cop out on the behalf of people who are looking for a scape goat rather than facing their responsibility for the universe
PEACE