i was in another city this weekend
and some one tried to sell me a Socialist paper, mind you it was only a dollar. but...
i thought, is it right for a socialist to sell a socialist paper? isnt that capitalism in a sense?
thoughts on that
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i was in another city this weekend
and some one tried to sell me a Socialist paper, mind you it was only a dollar. but...
i thought, is it right for a socialist to sell a socialist paper? isnt that capitalism in a sense?
thoughts on that
So you are giving communists a free pass for using forced child labor because they export production to capitalist countries? That is foolish. Communists need to be responsible for their own child labor laws. Trying to blame it on the countries you export to is like me robbing the bank and blaming it on my employer for not paying me enough to begin with. And to Visionz, at least I have a CHOICE which products I buy. If i am gung-ho against cheap sweatshop labor, i can personally CHOOSE to not purchase products from companies that I suspect use child labor. that is called FREEDOM! I don't consider myself responsible for other countries' labor policies.
And that chart you posted, half of the countries don't even have data for them. The worst users of child labor are in "Mother Africa."
What about Communist China and all their FORCED child labor and human trafficking going on in their rural communities?
Overall, I think we are arguing a moot point because most civilized nations have outlawed child labor. But one last thing I want to analyze right out of the communist manifesto:Quote:
Children thought to be as young as eight years old were kidnapped, held captive and forced to work long hours for no pay.
The case has revealed the dark side of China's booming economy with forced labour and human trafficking common in rural areas, the BBC's Dan Griffiths reports from Beijing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6759399.stm
Now this isn't as good as it sounds because after reading the context I believe Karl Marx's vision was for children to be taken away from their parents and be placed in state run institutions where they would be educated and work at the same time. "combination of education with industrial production" ...yeah right. That means you are "Learning" a trade while you are "working."Quote:
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...festo/ch02.htm
Quote:
In the early 1920’s, Lenin’s wife introduced project work to Russian educators. Around 1930 the head of the Institute of Educational Research in Moscow declared the "metod proektov" or project method to be the one and only "Marxist" and "democratic" method of teaching. The project method encouraged children to go to factories and support workers. Writing reports on laborers, demonstrating against idlers, and showing workpieces and products of their own were how the students supported the workers. http://www.milford.k12.il.us/MHSsite.../education.htm
Those of you who can't compete in this capitalist society in America would at least be trained to "love labor" in your communist school system. You'd also be trained to not believe in God. And don't forget, you are NOT an individual. You are merely a part in the socialist STATE. You are owned by the state.Quote:
In the Soviet Union this process started from the very beginning of a child’s life. Lenin said, "The entire purpose of training, educating, and teaching the youth of today should be to imbue them with communist ethics. The school apart from life, apart from politics, is a lie and a hypocrisy." Citizens were taught the communist world view of love of labor, patriotism, atheism, and collectivism.
So what do you think? You think in your communist paradise that you won't have to work 40 hours per week? At least here, you have the choice of whether you want to show up to work.
I am an INDIVIDUAL. I believe in GOD. I have freedom of choice. Freedom where and when i want to work. And capitalism is working out great for me. Sure the CEO of Coca Cola is making more money than I am. I don't care. I could be the next CEO of a corporation if I want to be. In matter of fact, I believe that the current system of capitalism in the United States would actually be better if we phased out some of the socialist ideas that were beginning to be implemented in the panic following the first Great Depression all part of Roosevelt's "New Deal" policies. But that is worthy of its own discussion.
Let's just pretend that P2P has convinced me how wonderful communism is. Where in the world could I move to in order to enjoy the prosperity of a communist system? Or does communism only succeed in your textbook?
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I disagree. I don't agree with you correlating individualism with consumerism. That was a long shot. Even the lowest class Americans are able to express themselves in infinite ways in America. Not everyone buys into Hollywood and celebrityism. Being an individual isn't about how much money you have. It is about your freedom. Freedom of speech. Freedom of press. Freedom of religion. Freedom to assemble. Freedom to petition. You don't get these freedoms in Communism. Therefore you are less of an individual. You are not allowed to disagree with the elitists running the communist country. You are not allowed to practice religion. In communist countries you can say things that get you killed. The government owns all media and distributive outlets. Therefore if you aren't the INDIVIDUAL that the government wants to promote, you get silenced. How's that for individualism?
I don't mean to brush off your retorts. I actually respect and appreciate you arguing your side.
Again, I ask, if you were to convince me to your side, then what country would you recommend I move to in order to experience the prosperity of communism? Because, if I were to support communism, there is no way that i could spend the rest of my life living in America directly supporting Capitalism. Certainly, there must be somewhere in the world that Communism has already succeeded. But where?
Adam Smith argued that capitalism was an equitable system based on individual freedom. Marx, for his part, understood that communism would be the ultimate liberation of humanity as they were able to be whatever they wanted to be outside of the constraints of powerful elites.Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtMcGirt
The two are not mutually exclusive, but the truth is politicized.
But we have elites for a reason, they're actually better then other people...
That's why I don't like Communism. Some people are smarter, better looking, more athletic, taller, stronger, and faster then you. As a result, they're also more confident, nicer, and more polite. Communism punishes those people in order to reward others.
what about anarchism/libertarian socialism? Why does it have to be between unbridled laizze-faire capitalism and state socialism?
The CNT had some remarkable infrastructural success during the Spanish Civil War. I don't know if such a system would work now or not, but it's worth noting that communism/socialism doesn't have to be of the Marxist-Leninist dictatorship variety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
not at all but you're trying to pretend that capitalism has nothing to do with child labor if its taking place in a communist country which I find laughable. You say you have a choice in this regards and I'd contest that though you may you're probably not exercising that freedom. The fact you're on the internet at all tells me I've for about a 99% chance of that being correct.Quote:
So you are giving communists a free pass for using forced child labor because they export production to capitalist countries? That is foolish. Communists need to be responsible for their own child labor laws. Trying to blame it on the countries you export to is like me robbing the bank and blaming it on my employer for not paying me enough to begin with. And to Visionz, at least I have a CHOICE which products I buy. If i am gung-ho against cheap sweatshop labor, i can personally CHOOSE to not purchase products from companies that I suspect use child labor. that is called FREEDOM! I don't consider myself responsible for other countries' labor policies.
Whenever extreme poverty exist there will be some corporation there to exploit the situation and a government that's willing to sell their people out if the price is right. All participating parties are guilty, myself and my nation included. I'm just pointing out that you're no different (even if you like to pretend you are).
Visionz, you cannot reasonably expect me to trace every single product that i buy back to its original place of production and to investigate the labor laws of that resident country. Child labor is unacceptable whether it exists in capitalism or communism. Historically it existed in both. I still don't think there is anything wrong with parents requiring their children to do chores around the house and earn allowances instead of letting them rot in front of televisions all day playing video games and having everything handed to them for free. That sort of parenting only breeds them to expect things for free when they become adults (i.e. communists).
Cthulhu: feel welcome to introduce your own take. As far as libertarian socialism, I like the libertarian element but I don't like the socialist element. I wish the libertarian party would gain some more support in the USA because we sure as hell need to downsize government and decentralize the federal government. Our country started off with strong state powers, however in the 20th century more and more of that power became centralized to our federal government. However I am not so libertarian that I believe in anarchism. Just as a disclaimer, my idea of libertarianism is the American blend. What you consider libertarian in another country may be far different. Texas congressman Ron Paul to me is a perfect blend of conservativeness and American libertarianism. I'd like more of the federal powers to go back to the states. That way if i hate one state's laws i could just go to a different state, but still be under the umbrella of the United States.
Ideally, we get the states to a point they can form their own countries or confederations. America is too big and too diverse to not allow regions to govern themselves the way they want.
Its like why should a New York Senator or Congressman dictate the rule of law in Arizona. At inception it was 13 nations bound together by their local geography and English Heritage. What uniting force do the states have now? The Old South and New England are so different it's hardly the same country. Our accents are very different, our culture, hell our social interactions are very different. It's like honestly, put the two in a room and the Southerner will start the conversation.
The States aren't just geographic divisions. It's not like France where the entire government is united. We don't have departments like they do. We have 50 States. 50 Independent Nations being choked to death by an oversizes central government. Why can't we be like the European Union rather then a singular entity. If NYC or California or Mass wants their "free" state health care, let them eat cake. If Arizona wants to wall themselves off from the outside world and put down some paranoia land mines, why should Oregon be able to say "That's xenophobic." If Michigan wants to divide into two states who the hell cares. Vermont says "Fuck you guys we're a Canadian province gargle on my cack, who are we to say "You can't do that."
The Idea that states can join the US of their own will but can't leave is insane to me.
I'm not talking about right libertarianism, but the variety anti-capitalist political philosophies that favor collective ownership of the means of production, but decentralized planning based on direct democracy and group consensus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense-A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutuali...onomic_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_libertarianism
Noam Chomsky is probably the most prominent proponent of such a system, but it has a very long history of thought. When people define themselves as anarchists, they usually belong to one of these related schools of thought. I can't say I know enough about it to say how practical such a system would be, but in theory it appears the most just to me.
one second you're talking about your freedom to choose, now you can't be held responsible even though most of what you own was most likely produced in a factory of underpaid workers and/or children. Nice way to try and shift talk over to household chores in light of the fact though, very relevant.Quote:
Visionz, you cannot reasonably expect me to trace every single product that i buy back to its original place of production and to investigate the labor laws of that resident country. Child labor is unacceptable whether it exists in capitalism or communism. Historically it existed in both. I still don't think there is anything wrong with parents requiring their children to do chores around the house and earn allowances instead of letting them rot in front of televisions all day playing video games and having everything handed to them for free. That sort of parenting only breeds them to expect things for free when they become adults (i.e. communists).
Capitalism didn't reject it, it shipped the exploitation from home to overseas and now has flooded you with so much imports that you feel helpless in any attempt to determine whether the product coincides with your own personal values. But don't feel bad they're doing it to the entire world. I'm typing this on an Imac that stands a good chance of being assembled by a 5 year old. Apple isn't a communist institution is it?Quote:
Don't even start this child labor bullshit. Because I'll throw the evidence in your face that child labor is actually something that historically happens in Communist Countries much much much more than it has happened in capitalist countries. So again you are accusing Capitalism of something we took the initiative to REJECT over 100 years ago that the COMMUNISTS STILL DO!!!
Why are they made in China though? The label tells me it was designed in California, aren't they having an in-state crisis right now? Couldn't that state use some factories to pay some workers to bring more money into their economy? It's safe to assume Apple has the capital with the amount of iphones, ipads, imacs and ipods being sold world-wide isn't it?
Ignoring the problems of capitalist markets will not make them go away. Perpetual ignorance is not a viable long-term solution for the future of this planet. And child labor is but a single issue. Capitalism causes many problems and you've spent a good amount of this thread pretending they don't exist and/or that they don't have anything to do with you. There is but one human race and all of us should be mindful of our actions and their repercussions in this global economy run by multi-national corporations. Everywhere, the effects are far-reaching.
Could you share some of what you do know about it. From browsing through a couple of these links, I'm having a hard time visualizing what they're aiming for. Shared property (that isn't owned by anyone) as a means of production by a union where everyone is their own boss? Maybe I have that wrong but how does that work if , say, a union was building a car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
Again, I'm far from an expert, but it's something I've been researching here and there. The main problem I see is how you would overcome the problem of incentives. It has, however, been tried before with some success, but, unlike state communism, it's unclear whether it would have succeeded or failed in the long run since Franco's fascist government brutally suppressed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
http://libcom.org/library/workers-po...ion-tom-wetzel
I haven't read through most of this, but I imagine this site is a good resource for looking into this philosophy in detail.
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html
When you talk about say Nike using third world sweat shop labor to make my 145 dollar Air Maxes for next to nothing all I can say is
"I DON'T EVEN CARE."
And guess what, you're defeated. Call me ignorant, but how do I even know those people exist? I don't care when someone dies in the newspaper. I'm not crying uncontrollably when I see someone got raped and murdered in Nevada or something. Let's be honest, I'm not that concerned when a bomb goes off in Baghdad, and even the deaths of soldiers isn't going to wet my eyes (although I feel bad about that, because they're fighting a pointless war in my defense, which means it's not something to ignore like a homicide in Manhattan.)
The point ladies and gentlemen, is to quite simply Shut The Fuck Up. All you fagots don't give shit to charity, and then blame the government for not doing it for you. Has anyone else done charity work that wasn't court ordered? That's why I hate communists. They're all about fighting the power and the man and overthrowing tyrants and the glorious stuff, but when do they give? Communism is take take take. "He has what I deserve, so I'll kill him and take it." That's all the communist revolution is. It's a dehumanizing slaughter of those innocents capable of making money and those people who through no fault of their own ended up with more wealth then you. Guess what? You can earn your way.
In the mean time, I'm going to keep looking for a summer job. Although I could, I don't want to be a drain on my parents. I'm not getting a job at my dad's business, I'm going to get minimum wage or marginally better job and work at it. When I worked for my dad I got like 10 dollars an hour to do one or two errands for the day. That's dumb. I didn't earn that.
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Last time we did that it led to a little mishap called the Civil War. The bloodiest war in American History was us fighting ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoarzHeadBoy
I agree that the healthcare bill should have been legislated in Nancy Pelosi's state if the dumb bitch wanted it that much. But we all know how great CA is at managing their budget. They are on the fucking pink sheets. An open border policy mixed with entitlements is not a good mix. Massachusetts implemented their own damned healthcare entitlement program before Obama tried forcing it on the rest of the states. So yeah, on legislation with so much rivalry and bipartisanship, leave it up to the states!
Okay so you are arguing that outsourcing our production prevents us from governing the workers' rights in other countries. But have you gone and asked a sweat shop worker if they are happy? Or if they want to quit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Visionz
We hear about factory workers in other countries only making about $2 an hour, but have you ever considered what their alternative choices are? Even though $2 seems like a pittance to you, it may be a blessing for them. For someone in a poor rundown third world country with no effective economic system, that $2 an hour opportunity might be their bread and butter thanks to multi-national companies giving third world people who would otherwise be wiping their asses with leaves a chance to ease into the conveniences of a civilized modern life.
It is not the USA's place to tell other countries how to operate their factories. We are only responsible for America because in America is where I vote and where I have influence on our politics and legislation. I have no vote or effect on the laws of another country. Of course my money talks though, as I've already mentioned. So my best method of protest is to not buy those products that I suspect capitalizes off employees in bad work conditions. But then that employee may get laid off and they go from making $2 per hour to $0 per hour.
If those third world countries adapted to a capitalist system modeled after the USA, they wouldn't be hiring children or paying assembly line workers a pittance. All it would do is make our imports more expensive. Supply and demand would adjust, the market would work itself out.
Your argument doesn't hold much weight if you believe that a Communist country does not import/export products or internationally trade, even with capitalists. Hell the Soviet Union was trading with capitalist nations. If they were strictly communist, why didn't they refuse to trade with the very nations that were capitalist that they so intently rejected?
Child labor is not a direct consequence of capitalism. It exists in communist societies as well. Modern capitalist nations have adapted rights afforded to employees and have outlawed child labor.
China is a modernized communist nation. Yet they export most of their production to the USA. So maybe the communists are the root of the problem?
Here is an interesting note, since China gradually became less and less communist since the '70s, their economy has gradually become more and more successful as it has become more and more capitalist!!!
Well who would have thought!?Quote:
China's economy during the last quarter century has changed from a centrally planned system that was largely closed to international trade to a more market-oriented economy that has a rapidly growing private sector and is a major player in the global economy. Reforms started in the late 1970s with the phasing out of collectivized agriculture, and expanded to include the gradual liberalization of prices, fiscal decentralization, increased autonomy for state enterprises, the foundation of a diversified banking system, the development of stock markets, the rapid growth of the non-state sector, and the opening to foreign trade and investment. China has generally implemented reforms in a gradualist or piecemeal fashion, including the sale of minority shares in four of China's largest state banks to foreign investors and refinements in foreign exchange and bond markets in 2005... The restructuring of the economy and resulting efficiency gains have contributed to a more than tenfold increase in GDP since 1978. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ch.html
Another important point is that our corporations are not outsourcing for the primary purpose of cheap labor. I don't know if you noticed, but we tax the "EVIL" corporations to death!!! We double tax them for one. We tax the corporation as an entity and the shareholders who collectively own the corporations get taxed AGAIN! And corporations alone are paying about 40% tax on their income!! Almost half their profits go straight to Uncle Sam!! So of course they try to re-locate as many of their operations as possible overseas. The USA has one of the highest tax rates on businesses in the entire world! So all the people in this country who are so against corporations and chant "EVIL CORPORATE THIS EVIL CORPORATE THAT!" should be grateful for all the tax revenue the corp's are bringing in and all the jobs that they create for people in an economy that, recently, NEEDS as many jobs as it can get to get these lazy fucking bums off the unemployment rolls!
In 2007 the USA government collected $2.7 trillion in tax revenue. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...venue_by_state). How much of that $2.7 trillion did your sorry ass pay?
The 2007 USA population was 305,562,616.
So $2,674,007,818,000 divided by 305,562,616 people equals $8,528.22 per person.
Please pay $8,528.22 each year to the federal government as your EQUAL share!!! And that is just federal taxes. Don't forget your EQUAL share of State and County taxes!! You probably don't even make that much a year total. The progressively taxed upper class in this society are carrying your weight for you. But I thought we were equal? Shouldn't we all EQUALLY contribute?!?!?!
You hate the upper class for making more money than you. But you don't hate them for paying for all the entitlements that you get, do you? Little doggie, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
you're a short-sighted teenage yuppy, of course you don't care. Real-world perspective is something that comes with age. You're not there yet so maybe you should just sit down and keep quiet.Quote:
"I DON'T EVEN CARE."
You can't even be bothered to check if the products you buy are made in a sweatshop but you're asking if I've taken a plane trip to China? lol I've had conversations with illegal immigrants here in Texas, you tell me if that counts or not.Quote:
But have you gone and asked a sweat shop worker if they are happy? Or if they want to quit?
You mean 10 to 30 cents a hour.Quote:
We hear about factory workers in other countries only making about $2 an hour
Research you've already admitted you can't be bothered withQuote:
So my best method of protest is to not buy those products that I suspect capitalizes off employees in bad work conditions
your reading comprehension is failing you on this one. Communist China is one of our biggest trading partners so idk what led you to think this was ever suggested.Quote:
our argument doesn't hold much weight if you believe that a Communist country does not import/export products or internationally trade, even with capitalists
You keep on ignoring the fact that all those exports are the product of so-called US companies. China's not making $250 Billion a year in exports to the US shipping Tsing Tao everywhere. As for that other statement, produce and production are two different things. Its American produce in production from China. You never answered the question, if you threw away everything in your house that wasn't made in the US would you have anything left?Quote:
Child labor is not a direct consequence of capitalism. It exists in communist societies as well. Modern capitalist nations have adapted rights afforded to employees and have outlawed child labor.
China is a modernized communist nation. Yet they export most of their production to the USA. So maybe the communists are the root of the problem?
Here is an interesting note, since China gradually became less and less communist since the '70s, their economy has gradually become more and more successful as it has become more and more capitalist!!
Did you just really try to pitch that as an argument? You know it doesn't make any sense right?Quote:
So of course they try to re-locate as many of their operations as possible overseas.
If I'm Nike and I've got a plant in China and I can produce a pair of shoes for $5 and then sale 'em for $140 here in the US, am I paying taxes on the $5 or the $140? Ofcourse its about cheap labor! That's a pretty naive statement for someone so proud of their college education.lol Nice try though.
And I'm not gonna even give a response to this other bullshit post of yours. Yeah I really don't make 8 grand in a year :? I love how people know everything about you when you're not ready to swallow the blind nationalistic bullshit they're serving. Gtfoh with that noise.
re-do your math. corporations also receive public goods from tax revenues. better yet, re-calculate according to the proportion of benefits from public expenditure and said beneficiaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense-A
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yeah, but Lenin and co. made their people suffer just as bad or worse as under capitalism because they essentially operated as one giant corporation that you couldn't quite your job from. Plus it's not constructive to just blame everything on a fuzzy category of "bourgeois" people. The allure of consumerism and profit affects everyone, from the top of the ladder to the poorest person. I support collective action and empowerment from the bottom up, but I can never get behind the idea of a "vanguard" party condesendingly claiming to represent the interests of the oppressed and violently attacking those who criticize them.
"They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up. ”
— Mikhail Bakunin, Statism and Anarchism
/\
And that shit was written waaaay before the Russian Revolution. Funny how he was dead on accurate.
Here's an idea. Why don't we all look out for ourselves and see what happens? If I bother myself in the betterment of others do I not injure my own betterment?
Like Cain said to God "Am I my Brother's Keeper?"
The Bible says yes, and to an extent that seems reasonable.
However in the wider context, who is my brother?
Should I look out for my family and friends? Sure.
Should I look out for people I don't know? How can I even try to?
If you walk down the street one day and don't see someone getting mugged or hear of it later, did they ever get mugged? How can you do anything about it?
People talk big about giving money to charity or seeking social changes and that is a good thing, but at the same time they ignore the problems that are closer to home. What good will it do to fight your revolution if you ignore the signs of depression in a family member? Why do we obsess about the big things and belittle the things we can actually change?
redo my math? I divided the total tax revenue by the total number of people in the country. I'm an accountant. Math is not a problem for me. Corporations are made up of people, so I didn't exclude them. Most of the public expenditures and social services go to lower class people, not to corporations. The facts that corporations are actually owned by people sort of cancels that out, does it not? I divide total tax revenue by total people (including human shareholders who own corporations).Quote:
Originally Posted by DUMBO
My point is that if you want EQUALITY you should pay your equal fucking share. Mr. Bad Evil corporate CEO is paying your share for you, which you are ungrateful for. The rich people do not get nearly as much benefit from the entitlement and welfare/social programs and public good funds. You are wrong. Most of the public goods are used to benefit minorities and people below a certain income level. So the rich people are paying your share of the taxes while you reap most of the benefits.
We have child labor laws in America. If you don't like the fact that child labor is happening in other countries, go complain to those other countries. I vote in politicians that are against child labor. I'm not guilty of anything that you aren't guilty of when it comes to buying import products. What do you want us to do Visionz? Shut off our borders and disallow imports? Communists import products too. Hell, communists even import products FROM capitalists!!! Stalin was importing good ol' American steel and American military equipment such as trucks, tanks, planes, etc. Child labor is not a problem that is isolated or distinct to capitalism. If you think child labor will go away when you rid the world of capitalism, I'm contesting that you are mistaken.
Please give examples and proof of American corporations proven to be using child labor in other countries so that I can begin boycotting them thanks to our capitalist free market system that lets me voluntarily decide who I purchase from. So far you've only made indirect and vague accusations.
I wonder if any of you on this forum will be singing a different tune if you ever become very successful and realize first hand what it is like to pay 35% of your income versus the 10% or 15% that you pay now. My point is that we already punish the wealthy people with a progressive tax system. But people like to forget about that. It's a lot more fun to just point the finger and pretend that successful businessmen are just evil evil very very bad people. Even if rich people were taxed at the same percentage rate as you, it is still multiplied by a higher income. But a higher percentage AND a higher income means A LOT more tax than you pay. Why should someone else pay tens of thousands more in tax than I do when they actually receive LESS in social benefits and are completely ineligible for a large portion of them?
Basically, if we were to EQUALIZE everything in this country, your standard of living would be even lower because you wouldn't even be able to afford your EQUAL portion of taxes to the federal government let alone your state and county and municipal government taxes as well. Put your head in the sand if you don't want to acknowledge that fact. Face it, we live in a very watered down Socialist form of capitalism in America that is actually working to your benefit if you make less than say $32,550 for people filing single.
Because typical communists have spent their whole lives trying to blame other people for their own problems, their own failures, their own poverty or lack of employment. It is always someone else's fault and never their own. It boils down to having a piss poor attitude. Some spoiled brats in America like to pretend that they have it bad so they jump the revolution band wagon. But if it really came to spilling blood in order to get their way, they'd probably all disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoarzHeadBoy
I live in a communist country and just believe me, it doesn't work.
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I live in a capitalist country and believe me it doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by iove
well, if you are an accountant, you should know that businesses pay taxes, and their proprietors also pay individual taxes. so re-do the math and other quit typing jibberish on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense-A
Heh.
It's scary how easy and convenient it is to be a reactionary and write a whole diatribe on why the status quo is great. Hell, research and education aren't even necessary. All one has to do is parrot the contradictory sentiments of the bourgeoisie which have successfully monopolized mainstream media.
People with the least amongst of responsibility are the happiest. And people with more responsibility are sadder and suffers from stress more hence they should get paid more! It's about equal distribution of responsbilities!!! Hence communism and captialism are both right in their own ways!
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ALL CORPORATIONS AND PROPRIETORSHIPS ARE OWNED BY PEOPLE!!!! WITHOUT PEOPLE THESE TAX PAYING ORGANIZATIONS DO NOT EXIST! BY DIVIDING BY ALL PEOPLE I HAVE INCLUDED THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND ALL TAXATION. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?Quote:
Originally Posted by DUMBO
Just to make you happy I will exclude corporate tax revenue, even though this throws the numbers off because tax revenue collected from corporations is still spent on PEOPLE and paid for by PEOPLE! According to the Congressional Budget Office statistics, 12% of federal tax revenue was collected from corporations in 2009. (even though the shareholders "people" suffer this taxation we will deduct it to please DUMBO)
so 12% of $2,674,007,818,000 is $320,880,938,160.
$2,674,007,818,000-$320,880,938,160=$2,353,126,879,840
$2,353,126,879,840 / 305,562,616 = $7700.96 federal tax liability PER PERSON
Please pay your EQUAL share since you want economic EQUALITY!!! Otherwise thank the people who get fucked with a 35% tax rate and pay double taxation with payroll, corporate, LT and ST capital gains taxes.
The fact of the matter is you couldn't even pay your equal share of the costs it takes to run this country. The money it costs for our roads, our military, our public buildings and offices, all the subsidies to agriculture and energy and water projects, the parks, the libraries, the public education system, state universities, hospitals, clinics, (medicare, medicaid), welfare, section 8 housing, airports, railways, etc. etc. etc.
And this isn't even counting your EQUAL fucking share of STATE taxes that pay for public officials, police, teacher salaries, etc. etc. That'll add on another couple grand to your annual bill that you should EQUALLY foot as an EQUAL citizen in the economy.
Or you can complain because Mr. Corporate CEO who has a PHD and has been successful in every business venture he's ever partaken in and drives a Mercedes 500 series and pays >$10,000 in annual income taxes while you're unemployed lazy ass drives a toyota and gets a federal tax refund at the end of the year in a greater amount than you even paid in! All the while you get to reap as many public goods benefits as he does even though you are a drain on the federal system, not a contributor.
One day you will realize this and be thankful that you live in a capitalist system, unless you are a hard worker with a good education who is successful in business and it is YOU who is getting fucked by the government taking >35% of your income.
Bourgeoisie this bourgeoisie that. Who the fuck is the bourgeoisie? How much money do I have to make to no longer be considered proletariat and all of a sudden be called bourgeoisie? What is the salary threshold?Quote:
Originally Posted by power to the people
status quo? Reactionary? You are the one that's reactionary. It is easy to be such a miserable young teenager or young person in his 20s who has no fucking idea what he wants to do with his life and is troubled by taking on ADULT responsibilities so that your best option is to GO AGAINST the status quo and complain about how life isn't fair. THAT is the easy cop out which you are enrolled in. So you subscribe to communist propaganda even though it is only fantasy devised by sulky pathetic people such as Karl Marx. Read about Karl Marx's life. It was pathetic. The fat old man couldn't even take care of his kids. Out of 7 children only 3 of them survived to adulthood because Karl Marx was too fucking lazy to get a job! He thought he could make a living just doing the equivalent of blogging all day. And he lived in London when the industrial revolution was booming!! No excuses!!! The guy was fat as santa clause and too lazy to trim his ugly beard. Funny his children starved, maybe he was selfishly eating all the food himself judging by his fat belly in his portraits. And he was an atheist. No GOD is his miserable life.
I have asked repeatedly where in the world I could travel to and live in a IDEALISTIC COMMUNIST PARADISE. One must not exist because you have time and time again ignored my challenge. There is no Communist country on the entire planet Earth where i can live a better life than the capitalist life I live in America with as many freedoms as I currently have. Hell there isn't even a watered down Socialist Communist country on the whole fucking planet that can even come close to my current standard of living. And I'm just a normal guy working a 40 hour/week accounting job in an air conditioned office with a nice view.
The only thing that is going to happen "OUT OF NECESSITY" is that hardworking people are no longer going to be capable of sustaining and supporting the deadbeats in society who can't keep a job but they have 10 kids out of wedlock. These parasites in society who only breed kids but do not work and do not maintain a healthy family structure with both a mother and father present are going to be cut off from all their food stamps, their free section 8 housing with free electricity and free water, their free welfare checks, their free unemployment checks, their free healthcare, their free bus passes and library cards and everything else. People are already becoming fucking sick of people leeching off the SOCIALIZED benefits and entitlements that this country provides.Quote:
Originally Posted by power to the people
And there is nothing "primitive" about our capitalist system in America. This is the most evolved system of commerce ever to grace mankind. Communism is a very primitive notion and might work in a small group of 10 nomads living in the jungle. But in an advanced modern civilization, regulated capitalism is as good as it gets.
corporate income is not personal income. therefore your first calculation is dumb to use to analyze a capitalist economy, even more so in a global context. i guess you assume that the owners of every american corporation live in america?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sense-A
your second calculation is more disingenuous than dumb, although it is still pretty dumb. public dollars are spent every day on corporations and not only in the form of subsidies. tax dollars are used to build roads and massive infrastructure not the least of which on energy facilitities that are used, nay required, by corporations. re-calculate again and quit your whining.
furthermore sense-a who the fuck says i'm poor etc etc? you are trying so hard that you are losing your bearings and coming up with silly fallacious attacks not based on any known information. you, sir, are losing your cool.
Hm, why doesn't one of you provide an example of pure capitalism in action.
And another one of you can provide an example of pure communism in action.
Because Sense A is simply arguing that pure Capitalist theory works (nice observation bro... of course it fucking works, it's an idealistic theory).
Show me the pure free market functioning efficiently in practice.
Show me a nation that allows inefficient participants in it's economy to be punished, even if this is to the short term detriment of their national economy.
And i'll show you a communist nation with a contented and well adjusted population where wealth is evenly distributed and all civil services are available publicly.
Is the pointlessness of this thread sinking in... or not?
And nothing irritates me more than faggit American's who think Socialism and Communism are synonymous.
Fucking ignoramuses.