Once Upon a Time in Shaolin/museum tour/1 copy of album

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Originally Posted by ShaDynasty

Whats the difference between art and entertainment? Where do you draw the line?

I submit that there is no difference whatsoever.

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I'd say by the way music & movies have been made available (mass consumption, sometimes without people having to pay for it) they have become QUICK entertainment and have been devaluated as an art form. All art is entertainment but music & movies are not considered art by some. For music Cilva is trying to correct this skewed perception, with a one of a kind album being presented as the work of art that each album and movie actually IS (within certain quality boundaries of course). This is all more about changing perceptions, I think. The idea is to start people to get thinking about art & entertainment. Which is why this thread is an enormous success, whatever the opinion is which you express in it.

That is also why I think Hezekiah, Sinfullycute, you or I, just to name some of the last few people who have been writing in this thread, are all equally right, even though actual opinions vary wildly.

5th state, when did you sleep last?

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Originally Posted by 5th state

I'd say by the way music & movies have been made available (mass consumption, sometimes without people having to pay for it) they have become QUICK entertainment and have been devaluated as an art form. All art is entertainment but music & movies are not considered art by some. For music Cilva is trying to correct this skewed perception, with a one of a kind album being presented as the work of art that each album and movie actually IS (within certain quality boundaries of course). This is all more about changing perceptions, I think. The idea is to start people to get thinking about art & entertainment. Which is why this thread is an enormous success, whatever the opinion is which you express in it.

That is also why I think Hezekiah, Sinfullycute, you or I, just to name some of the last few people who have been writing in this thread, are all equally right, even though actual opinions vary wildly.

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what about books and poems. theyre also QUICK entertainment, especially in this digital age.

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Originally Posted by check two

5th state, when did you sleep last?

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between 06:15 and 14:27 (GMT+1)

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Originally Posted by Timothy Cain

isn't ur new album idea basically just following this pyramid which basically all commercial businesses follow.

I fail to see how that adds value to music.

compare this with books that are considered classics. This books added value to literature because of how good their quality was, nothing to do with how much they sold. also consider the fact that nowadays u can get books considered as classics for free or for a very cheap price (eg
http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Worlds-H...+of+the+worlds )

I think cost is completely irrelevant when it comes to how much value something has as a piece of art.

if u wanted to add more value to msic/hip hop just make an incredibly good album.

im not hating, but I really cant understand ur album idea.

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This pyramid is an excellent and well known business model, but I don't think Cilvaringz (or RZA) are in it for the money here. In actuality, I think they wouldn't really have a problem selling the album to a private person for a price covering the costs of the album, possibly with the addition of making a decent but not outrageous profit, as long as there is a binding contract saying the album cannot be released to the masses (any time soon) - just so they can get their point across of the music album being a work of art on its own merits.

What I'm saying is : the highest bidder is definitely not guaranteed to win on this one. Cilvaringz stated this himself a few posts back so I'm not saying anything new or revolutionary here at all.

Of course, as these kinds of things tend to take on their own course (and this specific type of venue has not been explored before so who knows what might happen) the idea of a whole lot of money might become increasingly enticing for some of the people involved - same way you or I would respond if we stood to make so much money it could set us up for the rest of our lives. So we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. In fact, the uncertainty about it is half of the excitement for the people who made the album possible.

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Originally Posted by Timothy Cain

between 06:15 and 14:27 (GMT+1)

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Correcto mundo.

Its pretentious horseshit, everybody knows music is art but paintings are a limited format, thats why millions of people can't own them unlike records. I don't know, maybe if Kanye came up with this idea, i might go with it.

But its not Ye, its not RZA or anyone else that matters. Its Cilvaringz, a guy that basically has no reputation as a producer or an artist. He made 1 standard Wu clone album 7 years ago and thats basically it. So why should i give a shit? Its being marketed as a Wu-Tang Clan album despite none of the Clan knowing it existed. RZA had nothing to do with it.

The whole thing comes off as shady and deceitful.

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Originally Posted by 5th state

just so they can get their point across of the music album being a work of art on its own merits.

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why wouldn't an album be a work of art on its own merits if it was distributed the normal way?

how would this album be considered a work of art if not that many have heard it?

All I've heard from this album was a snippet that Cilvaringz posted on his soundcloud with Inspectah Deck and Ghostface and it was amazing. I see a lot of people on here trying to devalue this project as "copy and paste" and a "Cilviringz album." but the fact is, Cilvaringz is a better producer now than RZA. I think you're just fooling yourselves in believing that this will be a mediocre record. All signs point to greatness, but people are too frustrated to focus on what's most important: the music itself.

You can keep complaining about the marketing concept, but don't belittle the music when you haven't even heard it yet. you know it's going to be the best Wu tang related album since the 90s probably, so be happy about that.

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Originally Posted by HEZAKYA

"If the concept is maintained and not compromised by a corporate approach, then I believe the album will never make its way to your iPod....LMAO! This is the most CORPORATE Bullshit idea i ever heard. This Is'nt some Unreleased Beatles Recordings made during the Sgt. Pepper Sessions..or Abbey Road Sessions...or A Rare one of a Kind Jimi Hendrix Album that was recorded in secret and never released...or Tupac and Biggie...I can see those albums going on a Museum Tour. What makes those guys Music rare?? They're DEAD!! The Beatles and Hendrix and Pac and Biggie will NEVER EVER produce another Album or Song again in our lives and forever. People will pay Millions to listen to those guys new material. Wu-Tang is still a working functioning group!(So They Say) So how can an Album not Produced by RZA and recorded by Artist still putting out Tons of Music be Rare and Art? Not to mention Wu-Tang as a group is decreasing in value everyday with all the fighting RZA and Raekwon are doing in public. No way these "Bickering Brothers" recorded a "REAL" album in secret 6 years ago. RZA himself said on the Breakfast Club..or one of these interviews last week..that Rae does'nt know what type of beats he makes, because he has'nt even been in the studio with Rae since 2007!!(8 Diagrams Era)So there goes the "Secret recording" Bullshit! Second of all....How many niggaz in the hood do you know go to Museums?? The last time i was at a Museum was sometime in the early 90's for a School Field Trip. So there goes the poor Minorities in the hood. Even if niggaz went..the tour would probley be NY...D.C....L.A..London and some other shit. Leaving out about 200,000,000 people. These White Folks will lose they mind if all these Hood dudes showed up at the Museums..they'll think we're gonna steal shit and break shit..they dont want us there! This is'nt for us!....So much for spreading Knowledge to the 85%... All that was bullshit anyways. Wu-Tang is finished and Infiltrated..and they finally Went "Full Sell-Out." Don't you see whats happening here??!! Whose gonna show up at Museums??..Pretensious White Hipster dudes who can afford to waste money on Album listening sessions just to seem cool and down with the culture. They dont give a Fuck about niggaz..we're not their fanbase anymore. Cilvaringz keeps saying "We gave the fans 20yrs"...You did'nt give me shit! I did'nt see you at the Paladium in Winter of 1993..performing with the Wu-leather on...i did'nt hear you while i was at the Bus Stop rolling Blunts and Listening to "Tical" in my cassette headphones in 1994....You was'nt in the tape deck when we was listening to "Cuban Linx" in a Stolen car being chased by the cops....you was'nt in the basement in the Winter of 1995 bagging up Crack while "Liquid Swords" was in the Tape deck...My point is..Wu-Tang was the Soundtrack to my life from 1993 to 1997....Cilvaringz was no where to be found..he was probley in High School like the rest of us...i did'nt hear of this guy until 2008. I joined this site in 2005 because i thought it was ran by Wu-tang or RZA. How is someone with a Posh London Accent telling us what's good for us niggaz in the streets of America. Taking our music and selling it to Rich White/Jews/Arabs...Hipsters in Museums with "BEATS" or whatever Commercialized Headphone company sponsoring this shit. Hip-Hop is dead!!..it's been hijacked by Outsiders and Corporate Thugs. Jay-Z and Puffy Started the Ball rolling. Now my generations music is gone..because we did'nt protect it. Wu-Tang died in 1997...this So-called group we have today is a Robotic Nostalgia Act. Performing the same songs over and over. Even Paul McCartney Performs and records new Albums..and he's in his 70's with 50 Years of Music on his belt..he still performs new material. Yeah..im sure the "Mainstream" Media is Salavating over this "Publicity Stunt"...since when did Wu-Tang care what the mainstream thinks? They just alienated the last little "Street Cred" they had...I would of never thought these Grimy street dudes would sell-us out like that..but that's what we Black Folks do..we dont own shit..we dont produce shit..we dont support our Black Businesses..which allows outsiders to come in and Dictate to us...What we should listen to..how we should listen to it. Im done with Wu-tang...im getting to Old for all this shit....1993-1997..I dont acknowledge any group or member after 97..Sunz of man..Killarmy Predates 1997..all that other shit is what watered down the brand.(The W is a Great Album though)Now "Cilvaringz" is the H.I.N.C..telling me he gave me 20years of music....no, you gave Wu-Tang nerds and White Boyz 8years of Music....Wu-tang was considered "Officially Corny" after 2001. Enjoy going to The Museum to listen to Cilvaring'z Wu-tang Nostalgia Album with 'Neck Beards" in Wu-tang T-Shirts with cacky shorts and flip-Flops. The streets wont be there. Very few if any Black folks will Show up. Ya'll fans on this site should stop promoting this Bullshit...Wu-Tang ended up "Wolves in Sheeps Clothing"....I dont wanna hear RZA blabbing about His 'Lessons" or teach The Truth to the Youth Bullshit anymore. This is Seth Rogans and Quinton Tarrantino's Music now..and the Hollywood Elite. No wonder nobody from Park-Hill fuck with these dudes anymore. Phonies! Maybe i should go read "The Catcher In The Rye'

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thats a long post

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Originally Posted by ShaDynasty

Its pretentious horseshit, everybody knows music is art but paintings are a limited format, thats why millions of people can't own them unlike records. I don't know, maybe if Kanye came up with this idea, i might go with it.

But its not Ye, its not RZA or anyone else that matters. Its Cilvaringz, a guy that basically has no reputation as a producer or an artist. He made 1 standard Wu clone album 7 years ago and thats basically it. So why should i give a shit? Its being marketed as a Wu-Tang Clan album despite none of the Clan knowing it existed. RZA had nothing to do with it.

The whole thing comes off as shady and deceitful.

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You shouldn't feel obliged to give a shit at all. If that's how you feel, that is simply how you feel. Your issue partly seems to lie with Cilva coming up with this idea, who to you hasn't cemented his status within the Wu legacy (early on). Hezekya expressed the same sentiment, which is a valid point of view. On the other hand, RZA okayed the idea (kind of retroactively).

About the paintings. Andy Warhol & Marcel Duchamp changed the status of paintings & sculptures as one of a kind works of art by either making more than one copy at the same time (Warhol, and he was not the only one) or working with every day objects which were only slightly changed (Duchamp).

So you could say some artists tried to break down the idea of art as being elite because they didn't agree with the worrisome evolution that works of art were getting too much of an elitist aura at the time. However, as times have changed now and music & films seem to earn very little respect maybe a move like Cilva'z aims to restore some of the lost respect for certain works of art.

Seems (art) history sometimes works in cycles like that.

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Originally Posted by Cilvaringz

This idea is so unique and new, that it is pretty much impossible to predict and map out what will happen to it. Once it meets the public arena and meets debate, it sort of takes a life of its own and all you can do is follow it.

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lol cilvaringz its been shown earlier that this concept isn't new

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Originally Posted by Ghost In The 'Lac

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_for_Supermarkets

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Originally Posted by Timothy Cain

why wouldn't an album be a work of art on its own merits if it was distributed the normal way?

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This is not a direct answer to your question, but it reminds me of what a local well known artist who received a part time job as a music reviewer at an important national magazine once said. (Names don't matter since I'm not talking about the US.)

When being asked about his new job as a reviewer he said it had much lessened his respect for and enjoyment of music. He went on to describe how his car had been filling up with CDs and records to review, so much so that he came to expect this constant music instream as nothing special, even as something tedious. Mind you, he was an artist himself. In the end he decided to give up the reviewing gig, even though his reviews were well received and high profile.

So I guess what I'm trying to say here is that wide availability, while having many advantages, also risks to negatively influence the way music is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by check two

thats a long post

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hhahahahahhhaha look at his 1 in the nerdnews thread

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Originally Posted by Timothy Cain

lol cilvaringz its been shown earlier that this concept isn't new

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Rightfully refers to the 'one copy is unique concept'.

Are you familiar with this controversial statement on art & art profits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Found...a_Million_Quid

It was high profile back then (in Europe not in the US I'd guess), but of course it's been quite a few years.

First part of a documentary on this ... Beware, bad image quality & equally bad haircuts abound on this one ... The first half of this clip just reiterates the history of the band, you might want to skip that.



Kind of like how the Joker burned all that mobster money in Nolan's second Batman film.