"Atheists have no morals, just look at Stalin & Hitler"

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Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

i'm atheist (actually agnostic, but anywho,) you are accusing us of trying to spread our beliefs, or disbeliefs which is not true. as you see, you yourself says you are the ones trying to force your beliefs on us. atheists really just want to be left alone. we don't care what you believe in, just don't force your shit on us. when was the last time you saw an atheist on a street corner preaching?


religions are the enemies of each other.

•catholic churches remained quiet during the holocaust and allowed the murders of millions of jews.

•muslim extremists killed 3,000 people on sept. 11th

•christians burned alleged witches at the stake

•christians rationalized having african slaves because they weren't believers in chirst. they practiced voodoo

•christians burn fellow christian churches

•in northern ireland, protestants kill catholics and vise versa.

•in palestine, jews kill arabs and vise versa



when have you ever heard of an atheist killing an agnostic just because they don't believe exactly what they believe??

when have you ever seen an atheist kill a christian, a jew, a muslim or any other person for their religious beliefs?

it doesn't happen.

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I never said that atheist are dangerous people personally, I know they don`t go round killing people who believe in God, but atheists are dangerous because they have been infected with a demonic idea, which is spreading though individuals who profess the atheist idea, the atheist idea is powerful in itself, because it`s designed (by the devil) to cast doubt in peoples mind and to make them lose there faith...now that doesn`t mean they put a gun to peoples head and force them to be athests (even though I believe there are some who if given the chance would), but the actual idea itself is meant to make people doubt and this is acheieved by even saying you are an atheist, and is especially potent in this day and age because peoples spirituality is so weak today, that they are more suseptable to doubting God....also most of the atheists are in the academic field, so they play on naieve individuals by using the titles of fact and knowledge to push there idea`s on people.

Just look at the world, most people believe they world is billions or millions of years old, when the bible says it`s 6000 years old, most people believe in evolution, as opposed to creationism...ect, and all these ideas come from scientists who are atheists..so they do try to spread there beliefs, but in a more subtle and sly way and also I believe it hasn`t got to the point of street corners yet but it will given time in my opinion.


peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

Just look at the world, most people believe they world is billions or millions of years old, when the bible says it`s 6000 years old, most people believe in evolution, as opposed to creationism...ect, and all these ideas come from scientists who are atheists..so they do try to spread there beliefs, but in a more subtle and sly way and also I believe it hasn`t got to the point of street corners yet but it will given time in my opinion.

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how are these scientists being "sly" if the really believe that?

the scientists who are atheists, have as much faith (i'm using that term for lack of a better word) that there isn't a god as you have faith that there is a god. maybe it's you that's being sly with your teachings by putting fear into people. scientists are just showing proof. religious people are showing...well, actually, they're not showing anyting. there is no proof.

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Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

how are these scientists being "sly" if the really believe that?.

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scientific theory on such topics such as the age of the earth, the big bang, and evoloutionism (all atheist doctrine b.t.w) are a about as reliable as as a house made of cards, these theories are just theories and have yet to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true.


Also I think you are being a bit naieve if you don`t think that scientists who are atheist don`t try to manipulate or publish material to suit and futher there own belief.

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Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

the scientists who are atheists, have as much faith (i'm using that term for lack of a better word) that there isn't a god as you have faith that there is a god. .

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belief in God is not scientifical belief and can never be, you can`t prove there is no God using science !!!!! and there best attemps have proven inconclusive, so how can they believe off that evidance alone ????? No....... I garentee Most atheist scientist started out with there own personal belief that there is no God, and then proceeded to find some scientifical facts to back up there claim...because I garentee they didn`t believe in God and then one day did an experiment or reasearch and found out that God doesn`t exist, because that is impossible,because there are to many unanswered questions and because there is no concrete scientifical evidance even today to back up this claim or there belief off science fact alone ?????..... so they must of started with this belief and then proceeded to use science to make it true.

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Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

maybe it's you that's being sly with your teachings by putting fear into people. scientists are just showing proof. religious people are showing...well, actually, they're not showing anyting. there is no proof.

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We have proof the bible, but people want to believe that is not sufficient proof.


peace be with you !

Some E-muslim fundies I've conversed with on thee internet don't actually regard Christians as infidels and heretics... how about that for "peace be with you" ruka?

^^^^

Yes they do....they just do it in a rounda bout way...read the koran ... islamic doctrine stands fundementally opposed to the epitome of christian belief....such as:

Christ being crucified

Jesus being God/ the trinity

ect....


peace be with you !

christians are always wrong

^^^^

Your statement is wrong !!!!!!!!!


peace be with you !

Zooruka, you're same arguements about science can be turned around against you about religion.

you are saying proof comes from a book written from almost 2,000 years ago to over 6,000 years ago. i say almost 2,000 years because none of the new testament was written while jesus was alive. that's fact. the entire new testament was all hearsay written atleast a hundred years after his death.

and just like you say God can't be disproved, neither can my deity The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the foundation of our existence. He created all. We also have our own book to prove it. you can buy it on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Flying-.../dp/0812976568

http://gingery.files.wordpress.com/2...ti-monster.jpg

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Originally Posted by Face of the Golden Falcon

^
funny how you used "knowledge of god" in your post, then followed it up by the words "belief" or "believe" 10 + times.

HETEPU

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You can have a belief in God and still have knowledge of God...really they Go hand in hand, people have a belief, then God provides you with some knowledge, now the question is if you choose to believe that knowledge or not...but at the same time you still have to believe because God does not give knowledge in such a way as to eliminate belief, he gives just enought to help strengthen peoples belief...for example God came in the form of jesus, but yet Jesus talked in parables not openly, (jesus) did not come down from heaven directly in the middle of a crowded jerusalem and say " look I am God in the flesh, here I will prove it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt" ... No...he gave clues (knowledge) to who he was and that God exists but just enought so people will still have to use faith (belief) to grasp the whole story.


peace be with you !

^
...why is your god so insistent in dividing the people he supposed to love?

HETEPU

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Originally Posted by Visionz

atheist have no doctrine, you're not being honest with yourself to suggest otherwise.

I see you mention evolution but do you realize that Darwin himself grew up religious and certainly hadn't abandoned the belief in God by the time of his death? How is the theory of evolution atheistic in nature?

And while you're at it, would you mind telling me what your body currently does with it's appendix?

And what's not aggressive about going door to door to tell complete strangers that they should share in their beliefs or suffer eternal damnation for choosing a different path?

It's a lot of questions I know but please respond to them all. Thanks

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as usual, when shit's too real, just ignore it. Appreciate that :thumbup:

God gave us intellect and the ability to discover the world around us. You talk of evolution, the Big Bang theory etc as if there's no actual and factual data behind any of it. Its a shame that you'd deny your own God-given ability.

I like science in that it persumes to know nothing as seeks to find out everything. With that being said it only concerns itself with the how and doesn't really concern itself with the why. Its a constant evolution in thought and doesn't mind throwing out what it thought to be truth if new information proves a new paradigm to be more correct.

You however take quack christian science as fact, who start out with a pre-determined frame of what they're setting out to be proven and squeeze facts to make them fit even though they don't.

http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/u...UDF-777866.jpg
Every point of light you see here^is a galaxy, not a star but a GALAXY.

Our own Milky Way Galaxy is approx. 100,000 light years in diameter and you, because you take the Bible as absolute fact in every sense of the word, are basically saying that every one of these galaxies was created at the exact same time as the earth and that NONE of them, not a SINGLE one is no more than 6,000 lights years away from us in distance, even as our own galaxy itself is much, much wider than that.

Go head, pull out some quackery-related links that completely distort all measurable data because what they set out to prove what was pre-determined from the very start and then blame it all on atheist.

What you don't realize is that by clinging fool-hardedly to time scales that are obviously erroneous you do the greatest disservice to the very idea of God because at that point you and people of your mindset give young, impressionable minds two choices, go with the people that have solid rationale to support what they're talking about, or go with the fear-mongering bible thumpers who are obviously full of shit. You can't blame that on atheist or science when your own unwavering position is the actual source.

It is completely possible to be completely rational about the realities of the physical world and still have deep faith in God and the Souce of All Creation. Unfortunately, too many don't know how to balance the two internally and we have a world that is seriously fucked up externally because of it.

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Originally Posted by Visionz

as usual, when shit's too real, just ignore it. Appreciate that :thumbup:.

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:stroke:

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Originally Posted by Visionz

God gave us intellect and the ability to discover the world around us. You talk of evolution, the Big Bang theory etc as if there's no actual and factual data behind any of it. Its a shame that you'd deny your own God-given ability..

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Because Darwin's theory is now the predominant teaching found in our public school systems and in higher education institutions around the world, one might come to think that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution had been proven as fact. This theory - that the world began from a random piece of matter that was over heated and then exploded into the living planet we dwell upon today - still continues to have large gaps and questions without answers. Nothing about the Darwin theory is fact or has been proven so. !!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Visionz

Our own Milky Way Galaxy is approx. 100,000 light years in diameter and you, because you take the Bible as absolute fact in every sense of the word, are basically saying that every one of these galaxies was created at the exact same time as the earth and that NONE of them, not a SINGLE one is no more than 6,000 lights years away from us in distance, even as our own galaxy itself is much, much wider than that. ..

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Helioseismology - The core of the sun produces deuterium from hydrogen fusion at 5 million degrees K. The heat is transferred from the core by convection currents so it could reach surface in days, not a million years. It also leads to an age for the sun based on the deuterium/hydrogen ratio of the local interstellar medium of 6,000-12,857 years.


Creationists have indicated that there is too much interplanetary dust in the solar system. The solar wind, solar gravitation and the Poynting Robertson effect remove dust from the solar system, while comets and asteroids can contribute to the dust. An argument was issued by Robertson and Slusher in a 100 page monograph confirming that equations derived nearly fifty years earlier were essentially correct and the solar system was limited to a few thousand years..... without some hitherto unknown massive replacement method. At least half of this conclusion is supported by secular scientists who hold that the lifespan for a typical dust particle is about 10,000 years.

1. The earth's magnetic field energy has been decaying at a factor of 2.7 over the past 1,000 years. At this current decay rate, the earth could not be greater than 10,000 years old. (Science says the age of the earth is around 5 billion years old)
2. There are not enough stone-age skeletons to account for the approximately 4 billion Neanderthal and Cro-magnon people that evolutionary anthropologists say lived during the 100,000 years of the stone age. "Yet only a few thousand skeletons have been found implying that the stone age was much shorter, a few hundred years in many areas."

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Originally Posted by Visionz

It is completely possible to be completely rational about the realities of the physical world and still have deep faith in God and the Souce of All Creation..

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I agree because everything in the bible is fact concerning the physical world.

peace be with you

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Originally Posted by TheBoarzHeadBoy

All atheists are is people who don't care about the "next life" they live for this world. It's realism instead of romanticism (although atheism has it's romantic notions, there's something powerful about dying for a cause knowing there is nothing more.) There's anti-theism and atheism. They're not the same thing. Anti-theists are what Christians assume Atheists are. Anti Theists want to end religion and they're as intolerant as theists. That's the ying and yang. Atheism is without the need for God. You say no thank you and that's it. Atheism is private unless asked. You don't need to debate about it as an atheist. An Anti Theist feels a need to prove a Theist wrong. An atheist says "have fun with that."

Exactly. I don't particularly believe in God, though I do muse about the concept from time to time, and I certainly don't expect one/many or an afterlife. Dead is dead is fine with me. But if anything I'm more moral because of it. Who is going to forgive my trespasses? Not God. No I'll have to live with my actions. That's more powerful.

There's a difference between Atheism, Anti Theism, and Nihilism.

I don't think there's a God and only see religions as institutions of philosophy, not theology.
I don't think that religions are evil. I think that people are stupid and do stupid things.
I do think we live with a purpose and that is to make our offspring's lives that much better.

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Yeah, Zooruka treats atheists and anti-theists as one in the same. He cannot separate the two, which is unfortunate.

Zooruka, the traits which you demonstrate towards atheists are perfectly illustrative of my point. You cannot respect them because you feel their opinion must be an affront on your own beliefs.

This disrespect is obviously in direct opposition with the tenants of your religion, but i guess that never stopped anyone before.

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Originally Posted by Visionz

as usual, when shit's too real, just ignore it. Appreciate that :thumbup:

God gave us intellect and the ability to discover the world around us. You talk of evolution, the Big Bang theory etc as if there's no actual and factual data behind any of it. Its a shame that you'd deny your own God-given ability.

I like science in that it persumes to know nothing as seeks to find out everything. With that being said it only concerns itself with the how and doesn't really concern itself with the why. Its a constant evolution in thought and doesn't mind throwing out what it thought to be truth if new information proves a new paradigm to be more correct.

You however take quack christian science as fact, who start out with a pre-determined frame of what they're setting out to be proven and squeeze facts to make them fit even though they don't.

Every point of light you see here^is a galaxy, not a star but a GALAXY.

Our own Milky Way Galaxy is approx. 100,000 light years in diameter and you, because you take the Bible as absolute fact in every sense of the word, are basically saying that every one of these galaxies was created at the exact same time as the earth and that NONE of them, not a SINGLE one is no more than 6,000 lights years away from us in distance, even as our own galaxy itself is much, much wider than that.

Go head, pull out some quackery-related links that completely distort all measurable data because what they set out to prove what was pre-determined from the very start and then blame it all on atheist.

What you don't realize is that by clinging fool-hardedly to time scales that are obviously erroneous you do the greatest disservice to the very idea of God because at that point you and people of your mindset give young, impressionable minds two choices, go with the people that have solid rationale to support what they're talking about, or go with the fear-mongering bible thumpers who are obviously full of shit. You can't blame that on atheist or science when your own unwavering position is the actual source.

It is completely possible to be completely rational about the realities of the physical world and still have deep faith in God and the Souce of All Creation. Unfortunately, too many don't know how to balance the two internally and we have a world that is seriously fucked up externally because of it.

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Nice post, and that's what i'm talking about.

You're right, a lot of people can balance a belief in God with an acceptance of science. For some, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Not tolerance, but accepting and respect is needed.

Tolerance is still despising another person's beliefs, but just doing nothing about it. To me, that's almost as bad.

Both atheists and religious people, in large, are incapable of accepting each other's opinion and respecting them.

It's sad, but in the end it's just a manifestation of our need to exploit and exaggerate any difference we see in our fellow man.

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

athieism is the enemy, not the people who hold the belief (because I believe they are being duped by the devil) but the belief itself...Now think of it like this, Religious people namly christians have been commanded by God (wether you believe it or not) to go into the all the world and spread the knowledge of God to all mankind so they will know the truth !!!!!!, now on the other hand you have a totally opposite belief, which says to mankind that God does not exist at all, now these two beliefs are competeing for the hearts and minds of the people, who otherwise don`t know any better about either belief...so therefore these two competeing beliefs will naturally be enemies of each other, because they are both incompatible with each other, and are in direct competition to gain converts.


Now you say "The concept of not adopting a belief, being a belief in itself, is ludicrous " what so ludicrous about it ???? it`s fact !!!!! That is the dichotomy of human thinking ......So either you believe in God or you don`t believe in God ....it`s that simple .... but they are both beliefs one way or another.


belief :


–noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.



2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.



peace be with you !

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The problem is, as you said, you think the two ideas are in competition. You can't understand that atheism is not related to religion and does not purport to be a replacement.

I can see why you would think this, as Boarz said, many atheists are anti-theists and use their atheism as a similar vehicle to religion. But you should distinguish between the two groups before you make such ridiculous generalisations.

They are not in competition for anything, especially not to gain converts. Atheism is not in competition with religion, it functions completely outside of religion.

On the subject of whether it is a belief or not, that is debatable i agree.

Now you posted the definition of belief, and to me, that only supports my assertion that it is not a belief.

Atheism is not an opinion or a conviction, it is a complete lack of opinion or conviction on the matter of religion.

"So either you believe in God or you don`t believe in God"

This sentence proves my point again, atheists do not believe. You said it yourself, they do not have a belief on the subject.

Without religion as it's counter part, atheism is nothing.

Without atheism as it's counter part, religion is still a belief.

I hope that helps.

i like the point that has been brought up about atheists and anti theists

a buddist is an atheist, ppl forget that 'not believing in god' isn't a religion by the other half of the human spectrum that's as diverse in its ideologies are the various followings that DO belive in God.