Poker Discussion

Here is another interesting hand heads up from the same tournament. This undoubtedly was my most memorable hand from the tournament. I'm going to do something different here. I'm gonna give you the actions, and ask you guys to guess what his hand was. I'll reveal the answer later.

My stack 212,876.82
His stack 235,123.18

ante 800
blinds 4000/8000

My hand As Kc
His hand ??????

He is in the small blind and calls 4000
I reraise the minimum completely by accident, I meant to make a pot sized raise.

He calls 8000

pot 33,600

flop 6c 2d 4s

I lead out with 8000 to probe him. He raises the minimum to 16000
I call 8000

pot 65,600

(At this point I would like to mention this hand was played horribly up to this point.)

I have about 180,000 left

turn card 2h

I check

he bets 34800 about half the pot.
I call 34800

I have about 145,000 left

pot 135,200

river Qd

I check
he bets 58,600

pot is 193,800 I have ace high.

What do I do? Do I call leaving myself with 87,000 left if I lose. Do I raise and pray he folds? What would you do? What do you think he has?

I will reveal my action as well as his hand later. Meanwhile I want to see what you guys think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prolifical ENG

That seems good...I might try that site.

WPE I haven't progressed much. The lower cash tournaments don't pay that well even with the rakeback. I've managed to double my bankroll in .05/.10 limit games along with the rakeback but there is still a yo-yo effect. That site is better with the limit tables. It would take a while before making a first $100 on there. It is meant more for people that play at least $1/$2. SNGs come and go, but there is usually only 5 people in those. $1-$2 tourneys would be better.

---

found out some rather disturbing news for you. Canadian players can't play on bodog! I'm tryin to figure out why.

he probably had an open ended straight draw with A-3 or something. You went all in and your K kicker won.

I flat called, and heres why......with the amount of money in the pot he could have called that raise with just about anything. I figure I call I may have him on just a draw like you said or he could have been trying to steal with a complete miss. I lose the pot there's still a decent shot to come back. He turned over Ac 9c. You were right I had him outkicked but he wasnt on any kind of draw. He played this hand really shitty, and I made a really tough call on the end with ace high. after the score was 339 - 108 (my 1st chiplead heads up) and i won soon after that.

playin the 100k guaranteed on bodog 4pm sunday. 1st place pays 25000. I'll keep ya posted.

CASH GAME STRATEGY

Chapter 1 : An Introduction to the differences

I have been incredibly successful over the course of my career playing in both tournaments and cash games but I can say with absolute certainty, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! The biggest difference between the two is the fact that everything you do in a tournament is so definite and rigid, one wrong move and you're done, so it's not really a good time to experiment and try different things. Your goal is clear and well defined, whereas in a cash game you never have a clue what your goal is until everyone has emptied their pockets and all the money is on the table. In tournaments, you want your moves to be stronger, so as to put the fear of death in your opponents. In cash games you want to "milk" your opponent for your last dime so the moves are designed to be small and tactful.

The bluffing aspect of the two games may be one of the biggest differences. In a tournament you must bluff to win. It's as necessary as breathing. You have a short amount of time to accomplish your goal and without stealing several pots, you will be blinded away unmercifully. In a cash game the blinds are uniform and never increase, so bluffing is not really a necessity. I have literally played for 16 hours straight and not bluffed at a single pot, and still wound up with a monster stack at the end of the night. In a tournament where the wrong move could lose you your buy-in, in a cash game the wrong move could cost you all your money and all the work you put in for several hours. You must adjust your game to make up for the differences and avoid the cash game pitfalls.

Chapter 2 : Random thoughts on Preflop Selection

In a tournament your preflop selection of hands is incredibly important. You must make good decisions as far as the strength of your hand is concerned because you can expect to be up against the strongest of hands that there are. In a cash game, depending on your opponents, use your imagination as to what they are playing because it could be anything. You want to look for anything at all that can give away the strength of their hand. For instance, I played with one player who still to this day (nobody gave up his tell) sighs whenever he has a monster hand. It has almost become instinctual as is my action afterward. I raise, he sighs and leans back in his chair, then throws in a huge raise. I muck before his bet hits the pot. I know he has it. He told me. Remember poker is a form of communication. Those who listen and learn to interpret the signals are winners. Those who are more interested in their IPOD's and that 17th beer are losers. It's just that simple. The point I'm trying to hammer home here is that it really doesn't matter at all what you play. It's what you do with it that matters. Cash games are about story weaving. You play any two cards and represent a hand. When I have a strong hand I like to represent a weaker hand and when I have a weak hand I like to represent a strong hand and vice versa. Mix it up. Keep your opponents guessing. This is generally completely opposite my tournament strategy which is to play weak hands strong and strong hands strong and keep my betting uniform throughout. I play so many different ways in a cash game because the opponents are generally the same for a long period of time so the same move might be recognized and not work the second time. Mix up your holdings and raises preflop. Limp with aces or raise huge. It doesn't really matter. Obviously a huge raise will signify you have aces, but you can "act" weak and still pull it off while inducing a reraise. Sometimes a slowplayed pair of aces will win you the biggest pot of the night. Sometimes you will allow your opponents to suck out on you and you will go broke. If you must slowplay a hand preflop, learn how to get away from it if the hand doesn't go your way. Aces are a great thing, but they aren't omnipotent. Learn how to get away from them if your read tells you that you are beat. The strongest of hands can be the biggest of losers in the cash games, and the worst hands imaginable can be the biggest winners. It's all a matter of how you play them.

good advice,

cheers.

Yesterday I played a free roll and won emourmous $0.6
well since I tilted couple weeks ago my poker accounts contained $0.03
with that $0.6 I played ONE hand limit hold em. Got QQ and won $1.4
now I had enough money to play a full table non turbo NL $1+0.3 si'n'go tournament. It look like that I could have lost the game but I won it and got $7(7.13 total)
so yesterday I multiplied 237,66666 times my money ;)

^^^Great job! Although your math has confused me, but I guess thats just a part of being Scandanavian. I can't seem to figure you guys out at the tables either, lol. Anyway, keep up the good work and let us know of your progress...

Chapter 3 : Preflop Reads and Strategy for avoiding pitfalls Tonight!

Quote:

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If you must slowplay a hand preflop, learn how to get away from it if the hand doesn't go your way.

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That is a critical sentence. In cash games it is most important to fold your big hand that you slow played and know that your opponents hit their hands later. If you don't it will kill your bankroll, and if you have had a little luck with other hands, you might just break even for the session.

It happens all the time, people continue to raise when they made trips from their high pocket pair when a flush or straight is highly possible.

As prolifical will surely attest, the hardest thing in the game to do is fold a really good hand when you know you're beat. Doing so separates the good players from the truly great players.

Chapter 3 : Preflop Reads and Strategy for avoiding pitfalls

PART A : The Squeeze Play

In a tournament, the third raise is almost always Kings or Aces. I routinely fold ace queen or even ace king when faced with a raise and a reraise. In a cash game, however, third raises preflop can mean anything depending on who you are playing with. I'll give you an example:

Player A is a loose player who raises routinely with any holdings. Player B is a player who reads well and is generally tight but aggressive. Player A raises in early position with a low suited connector. Player B recognizes the player is weak and re-raises with an ace rag suited. You are in third position with pocket threes. You know the first hand is probably really weak and player B is using that read to take advantage of the situation. Now its your turn and you make what is known as a "squeeze play". You raise a huge amount and both opponents fold like lightning. Why?
You have just represented a monster hand because of the third raise. They absolutely cannot call because your hand appears to be a dominating one. They have to put you on a hand like aces, kings or ace king all of which have them crushed. Its a neat and tricky play that is absolutely effective when the read is right. I would say it is about 85-90% effective, that is you won't get called but 10-15% of the time. Don't try it too often however as eventually your opponents will catch on and they will call you. Used properly and sparingly, this is one of the best bluff moves in the game.

Part B : The Stop and Go

One of the worst mistakes amateurs make in a cash game is to give up the identity of aces in early position. They flat call in early position with bullets and then when raised, checkraise a huge amount, announcing to the world "I HAVE ACES!!!!". Instead of such an amateurish play, I will tell you about a move designed to both increase pot size preflop and disguise your aces so a medium to high pair will be trapped for all their money. In early or first position, instead of checking, raise 3-5x the blind. If re-raised and isolated against one other player, flat call instead of pushing. This is one of the best disguises of aces in the game. Now if the flop comes low and you are first to act, check to your opponent and wait for them to throw in a huge bet with their overpair. Now that they are committed you can safely go all in and expect a call. They won't believe their eyes when you turn over bullets! This is a low risk (about 10-20% failure rate) high reward play that works wonders toward building a monster stack.

***If you are first or last to act, and your opponent checks, beware the possibility that they flopped a set. It may save you from losing huge.

Avoid the limp-raise in first position with aces for two reasons:
1. You may not get raised and you are stuck in an unraised pot with multiple opponents
2. It is a dead giveaway

My time on WPX continues. Last week I actually lost money, but with the rakeback it appears I have broke even when I got my money back today...lol

My losses are simple as I shouldn't have been playing later on in the week when I wasn't in the mood for "really playing". That is, I was playing like an amateur.

Even though I have improved significantly over the last year in my tournament and no-limit game, I can still thrive in limit poker. Of course the game is stupid in a way, you only need to worry about a few things:

In a tournament when you are the chip leader, you can play differently based on the rest of the field and whos left, etc....Beautifulrock already explained 2 playing methods when you are up or down...but consider that is for freeroll strategy...however it can work for other low entry tourneys.

In limit poker you shouldn't switch the way that you play when you are winning or losing. When winning you may feel more lucky catching cards you might start playing any 2 using your luck...only to come into a big pot and you break even again. When people start losing, not catching cards...maybe even get dealt AA then KK right after and they never held up. Then you start wondering why the world isn't fair, instead of playing each hand at that time instead of remembering those losses. Then again gambles are taken by playing hands you would no normally play just hoping for a perfect flop until you are out of chips. Perhaps they are on tilt...you aren't playing...youa re feeling. You don't even need to bluff that much, although stealing those small pots time to time with perfect timing is easy.

Thats what I was doing.....my flops seen statistic was over 50%. Usually it is around 15-20% on a full table.

Usually I'm the one who preys on those people. Perhaps someone is catching everything....sometime Im going to swoop down and steal a pot off of him. Same as those players that start loosing. Their last few chips they wait for a half decent hand and then raise only to see my re-raise to get them all in...they want me to...but chances are they have a low suited connector...Im favoured to win.

Only other thing is to attack the new players. Especially if they buy in short...short money is usually scared money...unless they are truly an expert and they know how to play that position. But usually an experienced player would rather buy into a game with the heavy weapons to win big pots.

Here is a question.....

What do you do when somebody is playing as agressive as possible on the table? He puts up pressure on every player on the table by raising or betting high before the flop...so how do you attack?
With pocket pairs? - while I'm waiting for good cards the blinds kill me.
Shall I go All-In and show a strong hand?
Or is the best way to attack that bastard with terrible cards, 2/7, A/3 etc. you know the list...


I'm assuming you are talking tournaments because you mention the blinds eating you up. In a cash game the solution would be simple, hang back and wait for the nuts then crack him. But in a tournament strategy where the time is short and you need to make a move or be blinded out, this type a player who raises every other hand is your best bet to double up. Aggression is only scared of one thing, extreme aggression. Pick a hand thats likely to be a favorite, (any pair/any ace/high suited connectors) and push over the top all in. Three things can happen.

1. He folds and you win the pot right there
2. He calls and you win a showdown
3. He calls and you lose a showdown

2 out of 3 of these occurrences are good for you. That is why you are always more than a 50% favorite when making this move and pushing first. In a tournament you have to make moves eventually this is the type of opponent you want to try and crack. With such aggression and so many moves preflop it is more than likely that his holdings are minimal at best. Try and gamble with the best of it. Don't attack players like this with really bad hands. They tend to call.

thanks for the quick response man, that's the kind of information I need, so thanks a lot!!!

Some insightful tips beautifulrock. Last weekend had a bit of luck in a pokergame with family members. Had a pocket 2 in my hand so went along with the rest. Flop had 2 two's and a jack or queen. I raised, 3 people called. Turn I raised and 2 people called. River I raised and they called me. Shoulda seen the look on their faces when I showed the pocket two's in my hand.

Question No.2 - Slow Play (Tournament) Heads up

It was last summer as I played on Europoker as one guy killed me with his slow play. He NEVER raised, called nearly everything (including all-in) and never bet more than the blinds were.

Most of the time I tried to be aggressive with this player, after 3 hours, I was mentally done, cause nearly everytime I attacked he showed me the nuts.
How do you play a guy who is playing slow so solid without raising ONE time and showing no signs of havin strong hands? He was simply untouchable, one of the best I've ever seen.


For the slowplay artist the answer is easy. Match him move for move playing just as slow as he does. One constant among slow players is their innate knack for not recognizing when they themselves are being slowplayed. Use this to your advantage and keep the pots small on the front end of hands. Only spring into action when you are sure your hand is better. Avoid betting mediocre holdings on the river as this is a bad play against this opponent.

sorry guys for the delay with my cash game strategy. I've been playing 15 hours a day on bodog so not much time. chapter 3 part c coming soon - the suck in.

Wow....look at this hand my brother lost with....lol At the end of the day the guy was short stacked and was going all in anyway.

***** Hand history (v1.2) *****
Hand ID 107186451
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em (Split Limit) - 10:53:00 08/06/2007 ET
Table 'Bring in', 10 seats max, Real money
Seat 10 is the button. Small Blind $1, Big Blind $3
Note: seat IDs range from 1 to 10
Seat 1 (sitOut) : Player 1, amount $173.50, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 2 (playing) : Player 2, amount $26.50, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 3 (playing) : Player 3, amount $140.25, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 4 (playing) : Player 4, amount $92.50, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 5 (sitOut) : Player 5, amount $52, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 7 (playing) : zingzaps, amount $280.25, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 8 (playing) : Player 8, amount $50.75, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 9 (playing) : Player 9, amount $270, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Seat 10 (playing) : Player 10, amount $242.25, amount bet $0, penalty (None)
Player 2: Small Blind ($1)
Player 3: Big Blind ($3)
** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to zingzaps: [3s, 3c]
Player 4: Fold
zingzaps: Raise ($6)
Player 8: Fold
Player 9: Fold
Player 10: Fold
Player 2: Raise ($8)
Player 3: Fold
zingzaps: Call ($3)
** Dealing Flop **
Community cards: [3h, 9d, 3d]
Player 2: Bet ($3)
zingzaps: Call ($3)
** Dealing Turn **
Community cards: [Jh]
Player 2: Check ($0)
zingzaps: Bet ($6)
Player 2: Raise ($12)
zingzaps: Call ($6)
** Dealing River **
Community cards: [Jd]
Player 2: Bet ($2.50)
zingzaps: Call ($2.50)
** End Round **
** Evaluate **
Player 2: Show Cards ($0)
zingzaps: Show Cards ($0)
** Showdown **
Main pot $53.25, Rake $2.75
Summary Player 2: bet $26.50, won $53.25, net $26.75, HoleCards [Jc, Js], HiHand [four of a kind, jacks] [Js, Jh, Jd, Jc, 9d], won $53.25 from main pot
Summary zingzaps: bet $26.50, won $0, net $-26.50, HoleCards [3s, 3c]

I guess its not as bad as this though:

http://www.highstakesdb.com/forum/Topic37164-16-1.aspx

The first scenario happened to me except i had deuces against jacks. Thats unimaginable torture lol

I officially made my first $100 without making a deposit at World Poker Exchange (although I did make 1 sports bet on WSEX in attempt to support their rake free poker...bet $10 to win $14.00 (-140)).

Ive been playing for about 2 months averaging about an hour a day....never really took a freeroll at the beginning but just placed high many times to get my first $10 then worked at limit tables for dimes, NL $10 tables and $2 SNGs. I now plan on doing more $5 + 1, $250 guarantees.

Rock how are you doing on Bodog now? I guess if you're keeping up you must have cashed out a few times.

I'm currently in the 40k guaranteed about to cash. After 1.5 months on bodog my net winnings are $4800 - 1500 in cashouts and 3300 on there now. I was all over the tournament leader board last month and this, and thursday night I won the 6k guarantee $20 rebuy for $1800. I've been busy. Thats why its been hard to keep up with my posting. will continue cash game soon and congrats prolifical on your milestone. keep building and growing that stack.

Finished 12th in the 40k. i made $480. kinda disappointed about not making the final table tho.

im dling WPX right now I was playing PS but apparently you making gwop wit no deposit on WPX I'ma try my luck too

ok so now I'm on WPX, AP, and PS

here are my IDS

PS: Got Nickels?
AP: GotNickels
WPX: GotNickels

I've been playing freeroll tournaments in all three for the past 3 days, I usually wind up getting distracted and not being able to finish but today i aint got shit to do and I'm playing serious, I'm up for a Buy In Freeroll in about 30 minutes on AP...

avoid ap like the plague.

2 years on ap total winnings approx $4000
just under 2 months on bodog total winnings $6000

hmmm so you think bodog is better? I'm not making any cash deposits though I'm flat broke, if anything I'll take the miniscule amount of money im making in AP and go to bodog

Id play bodog if I could, Canadians are restricted form that site. Freerolls can give you a wad if you can take it.

On WPX it is very easy to get a few cents from the freerolls since there is less people in them but only $50 total. If you play in about a dozen freerolls you can easily scratch up a few dollars to get started.

Id avoid PS too.

hmmm thanks for the information guys, I'll prolly just play all of em at random, since they all have different freeroll times, I don't gotta sit and wait 4 hours for the next freeroll after I get knocked out on an early all in or something, or when I come home I can sign onto all of em and just look for the quickest starting freeroll... Even if they aren't good to make money people actually play seriously unlike play money so it's good practice IMO

i started on bodog with nothing. the freerolls payout huge ($120-$240) for 1st depending on the tournament. problem is they only run at 3 times 4am, 240pm, and 1040pm est. there is also a 30 pts freeroll at 915pm which you can play once as they start you with 50pts. absolute is a complete waste of time. I can tell you at least half a dozen times where they have screwed me or just done something underhanded. If you believe that a doom switch doesnt exist, try withdrawing money and see how the cards treat you afterward. crooked.

if you can some general heads up tips/strategies would be helpful.

in the last two games ive played in the last week i managed to surrender chip dominance and eventually lose heads up, and then bomb up in the most recent game playing far to erratically. i think im a bit rusty since i havent played for a while, time to start taking the games more seriously i think.

props on keeping the thread going rock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean michael

if you can some general heads up tips/strategies would be helpful.

in the last two games ive played in the last week i managed to surrender chip dominance and eventually lose heads up, and then bomb up in the most recent game playing far to erratically. i think im a bit rusty since i havent played for a while, time to start taking the games more seriously i think.

props on keeping the thread going rock.

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no problem.

Heads up is a different animal from 10-9 handed poker. For the most part, when you get to heads up in a mtt tourny, the blinds will be huge and there will be little room to play. Therefore the two defining factors toward winning will be luck and aggression. While you can't control luck, you can take control of the action by raising as much as possible. Any ace and any pair is good enough to push all in preflop. The odds of both players having a pair heads up is a little worse than 300-1 so dont be afraid to call an all in with any pair. In the small blind, you have the odds to call with any hand so broaden your hand selection considerably. When your opponent is on the shortstack, fire relentlessly and force them into a decision for all their chips, and don't be ashamed to bust someone with a weaker hand. I routinely call all-ins with hands like k7 q9 as these hands are not likely to be a considerable underdog (60-40% or so against an ace). Don't be afraid to lose and don't play tight. You simply don't have the time to wait for a monster. REMEMBER: In heads up chances are both players have nothing. To the aggressor go the spoils.

and if you are looking for a barometer to decide whether to go all in here is mine

flop- any ace , any pair , any two high connectors

post flop- middle pair or better

Listen, playing this way is absolutely not foolproof, but you give yourself the best chance to win. If the heads up situation is one where you have lots of chips and lots of blinds, you still want to be aggressive but you can scale back on the all ins. Steal relentlessly.

that last tip was a jewel you're skilling this thread Rock, thanks for the advice

thanks for the quick reply man, will try and implement some of that in my next game, possibly tonight.

infact its going to be really helpful, last game i played the guy i was up against was extremely tight, obviously just waiting for a big hand. and i didnt make him pay for it, in the end he got his hand relatively early, but still had chip dominance so he destroyed me. its always hard to know what hand will be good enough to push in pre flop, with some degree of confidence that your opponent has a weaker hand. your tips are pretty good in this regard.

cheers.

Thanks for blessing me on Bodog Rock as soon as I get done with court tommorow I'm going to my moms house to hit the tourneys

It's been a great month on bodog, I am challenging for overall tournament leader. here is all my cashes so far and my corresponding bankroll...

cashout-->balance day
105.00-->1955.63 -/02
278.00-->2122.63 -/02
42.50-->1942.21 -/03
144.00-->1880.86 -/04
34.16 -->1806.02 -/04
58.41 -->1831.49 -/05
72.00 -->1859.43 -/05
100.00-->1937.33 -/05
32.40 -->1767.53 -/05
125.00-->1756.76 -/06
18.00 -->1749.69 -/06
175.00-->1677.09 -/07
40.25 -->1562.84 -/07
78.00 -->1640.84 -/07
55.00 -->1537.24 -/08
36.00 -->1562.24 -/08
900.00-->2242.74 -/09 - withdrew 600
348.00-->1511.94 -/10
402.00-->1889.94 -/10
166.40-->2056.34 -/10
40.00 -->1882.89 -/11
21.00 -->1811.89 -/12
36.00 -->1724.79 -/13
1800.00->3103.29 -/15
69.00 -->3120.79 -/15
72.00 -->3100.19 -/16
56.00 -->3140.79 -/16
288.00-->3395.79 -/16
400.00-->3644.29 -/17
140.00-->3697.49 -/18
72.00 -->3689.49 -/18
72.00 -->3396.09 -/19
172.80-->3242.39 -/20
60.00 -->3187.39 -/20
966.00-->4051.39 -/21
91.50 -->4099.39 -/21
61.60 -->4105.99 -/21
120.00-->4218.49 -/21
825.00-->4953.99 -/22
401.70-->5335.69 -/22
60.00 -->5237.69 -/22
714.00-->5807.19 -/24
66.19 -->5703.98 -/24
50.00 -->5735.48 -/25
14.85 -->5684.83 -/25
36.00 -->5660.33 -/25
54.00 -->5407.83 -/25
132.00-->5311.83 -/26
178.50-->5283.83 -/26
705.60-->5796.43 -/27


cashes 50/300 total tournaments

Damn rock you eatin em up