Questions And Answers - prof zooruka

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

how is it possible to, by nature, be free of will
and at the same time be sinful by nature?
are these not opposing natures?

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Nope they are not opposing natures...beacuse free will is the ability to make consious dicisions for yourself, by yourself on anything you wish !!!!!...but at the same time you can be sinful of nature, because you can use your free will to make sinful choices....But if you do that, you can become a slave and lose your personal freedom, because once you start to make sinful choices, you become a slave to those choices over time eg...watching porn, prostitution, commiting crimes ect.... Though your free will is not effected (because at anytime you have the ability to make the choice not to do sinful things such as listed above) your personal freedom has become ristricted by sinful behaviour.... to the extent you may find yourself in jail.


But to answer your question, they do not conflict....you can have free will and still be sinful...because like I said you can use your free will to make sinful choices.

peace be with you !

i dont think you fully understood me prof
i know that you can do sinful things with a free will -
but im arguing against sinful nature
being sinful by nature means you don't have the choice of living without committing sins - in other words - no free will
you can use your free will to do sinful things...that just means you're exercising your free will, it doesn't mean your nature is now sinful (its still free)

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

i dont think you fully understood me prof
i know that you can do sinful things with a free will -
but im arguing against sinful nature
being sinful by nature means you don't have the choice of living without committing sins - in other words - no free will
you can use your free will to do sinful things...that just means you're exercising your free will, it doesn't mean your nature is now sinful (its still free)

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mumm....Sinful nature means that in the garden of eden man chose not to follow God`s guidance but his own understanding...hence the reason why eve chose to listen to the snake and eat the apple that was forbidden and not to listen to God...and this is what makes us sinful and is a direct result of free will....


I believe when God says we are sinful it`s because man chooses to disobey his guidance in favour of his own understanding and in the process has chosen evil over good....but this still does not conflict with free will...because..... it is because of the free will that we have we became sinful...we have a choice, we have always had a choice...adam and eve had a choice, but they chose to disobey God and listen to evil, therefore making them sinful in the eyes of God, So all a sinful nature means is that we have chosen to disobey God by the chioces we make with our free will..we are not born purly evil and then we have to work at being good...it`s just we as humans seem to choose the evil over the good, or our own understanding and desires over God`s and this started with adam and eve and continues today and is what makes us sinful....but we do have a choice with the free will we have been given to counter act sinfulness, otherwise if it wasn`t like that and we are born to be evil, then the religious guidance God sends would be useless, because nobody would follow it because we wouldn`t have a choice we would all be evil and nothing you say or do could change that !!!!!!!! ...... but we do have a choice (in free will) and thats why religion was sent down so we could choose the good over the bad...therefore gettting rid of the sinful nature in us.

So they don`t conflict...because we have a choice to choose.


peace be with you !

so what i got out of all that is we are actually not sinful by nature
and sin only comes with lack of knowledge
im not trying to be an ass, but you can't attach any adjective to "free nature" and still have it be "free". a sinful free nature doesn't make sense.
you either have it or you don't.

and if that's the case...it would seem we only need to be saved by ourselves....

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

so what i got out of all that is we are actually not sinful by nature
and sin only comes with lack of knowledge
im not trying to be an ass, but you can't attach any adjective to "free nature" and still have it be "free". a sinful free nature doesn't make sense.
you either have it or you don't.

and if that's the case...it would seem we only need to be saved by ourselves....

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mumm ra...It is a complicated question.....adam and eve where disobeidiant, and they passed that down to the rest of humanity...so yes we all have that dis obeidance in us...so in essance we are sinful by nature , but it`s not set in stone,because that disobeidance is not a fundemental of who we are, we have a choice whether we are disobeidiant or not... The disobeidiant`s is more like a bad habit that we have aquired and have a hard time breaking, but like I said it`s not set in stone in us we can choose to break it with our free will, if we want to....because if we couldn`t , there would be no use for religion , because the sinful nature would be apart of who we are, and there would be nothing we could do to change it..so telling us to be good and do the right thing, would be a waste of time, because we can`t...but this is not the case, we have picked up a habit (choosing evil over good), and religion was sent to break that, proving at our core we are not sinful, we have just chossen to be that way.


peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

.....adam and eve where disobeidiant,

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what were their real names ?


what name did Jesus's mother call him by ?






Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:45-47 (in Context) Matthew 27 (Whole Chapter)








why has god forsaken the other god ?

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Originally Posted by SUNNY WINTERS

what were their real names ?


what name did Jesus's mother call him by ?






Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:45-47 (in Context) Matthew 27 (Whole Chapter)








why has god forsaken the other god ?

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adam and eve where called adam and eve.....also when Jesus says why has thou forsaken me, he means why has God left him alone.


peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

.but this is not the case, we have picked up a habit (choosing evil over good), and religion was sent to break that, proving at our core we are not sinful, we have just chossen to be that way.

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great -
so what if we break that...?
no more use for religion?
you do understand that people can break that without religion already..yes?

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so yes we all have that dis obeidance in us...so in essance we are sinful by nature ,

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we all have good in us - does that make us good by nature too?

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but it`s not set in stone,because that disobeidance is not a fundemental of who we are

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i guess i just don't understand how these last two quotes make sense together. but okay.

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proving at our core we are not sinful

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okay, so we are not sinful by nature.

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

great -
so what if we break that...?
no more use for religion?
you do understand that people can break that without religion already..yes?

we all have good in us - does that make us good by nature too?

i guess i just don't understand how these last two quotes make sense together. but okay.

okay, so we are not sinful by nature.

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mumm ra........we are sinful by nature because we choose evil over good...but at our core level we are not born to be sinful because we can choose if we want to be sinful or not, it`s not an automatic given to be sinful...like your claiming it to be.


Also... Nobody can break the sinful behaviour without religion...you can count on that.


peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

adam and eve where called adam and eve.....

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lmao - by who ?

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

also when Jesus says why has thou forsaken me, he means why has God left him alone.


peace be with you !

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i know what forsaken means - when i read the bible in full, i would read some of the lines very very slow and sometime 2 or three times, and i had one of them big ole old ass webster dictionaries with me



according to you, jesus is god and was there since the beginning of time with god when he created the earth - so he should have known he'd be on that tree - so what was he crying for - a god crying to another god asking him why have you forgotten me ..........doesn't make any sense


when Jesus's moms called him in the house for dinner, what did she call him ?

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

mumm ra........we are sinful by nature because we choose evil over good...

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i can only hope you come to the realization that this makes absolutely no logical sense....there's not much more i can do myself to make you come to that fact.
no matter what you believe - you can't have a sinful free nature.

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Also... Nobody can break the sinful behaviour without religion...you can count on that.

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I did.

mumm ra....it`s like your a criminal you choose to committ crime, but you where not born that way, you chose to become like that, so it`s not fundementally who you are, it`s what you have choosen to become...same with our sinful nature,we have chosen to become like that, but the criminal behaviour like the sinful nature can be broke at any time you choose...you just have to make that choice with your free will...proving that we are not really sinful by nature at our core level or a criminal.


peace be with you !

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same with our sinful nature,we have chosen to become like that

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so we choose what our nature is

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

.you just have to make that choice with your free will...proving that we are not really sinful by nature at our core level or a criminal.

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couldn't have said it better

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Nobody can break the sinful behaviour without religion...you can count on that.

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I did.

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please don't overlook this truth prof zooruka, as you are incorrect.

if there is a god and a devil, them 2 right there are are greatest grandparents - think differently

I can dig it.

dear proof?
how many wins will the detroit lions an newyork mets get next year?

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

so we choose what our nature is.

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Yes and no....


we can choose what our nature becomes, by the choices we make...eg an man who chooses to do criminal activities, becomes a criminal by nature, but at the same time like I said, it`s not set in stone, because that man was not born that way, he chose to become like that through his choices,so where ever a choice is made that effects your nature, it can always be reversed with an alternative choice and proves that at there core level they where not made to be that way.... same with adam and eve they where not made with a sinful nature as shown in the bible, they became that way after the choice they made (which was to disobey God and choose evil)...So while after the choice human`s became sinful in nature,because we inherited our parents disobeidance, it is not intrinsically who we are at the core level, and therefore can be changed....and like I said this is proven by God giving religion, because if man was always sinful and born that way, religious guidance would be usless, because we couldn`t change who we are because we are born that way, but that is not the case with humans, we became sinful through choice not because that is who we are, and there for we can change.


The real saying should be our nature has become corrupted...not we are that way.
\

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

please don't overlook this truth prof zooruka, as you are incorrect.

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mumm ra ...I doubt you are pure in the sight of God, without religion...only God knows what is good and bad, you may think you are good because you proabably don`t steal or kill ect.... but God knows your heart and your mind, you probably watch porn, have pre marital sex, tell lies, masturbate ect.......and think you are still good hahahah lolz.


Im not judging you mumm ra or condeming you...all Im saying is you think with your attitude, that you know more than God and don`t need his advice to be living right...Now I ask you this !!!!!! who do you think knows more the creator or the created....humble yourself mumm ra, and accept the wisdom of the almight GOD !!!!!!!!



Oh .... If your gonna give me some speach about how religion is man made to controlle the masses and you don`t need it to follow God, save it..because we will never agree.

peace mumm ra

peace be with you !

i have to make this short cuz i gotta leave.....

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

mumm ra ...I doubt you are pure in the sight of God, without religion...only God knows what is good and bad, you may think you are good because you proabably don`t steal or kill ect.... but God knows your heart and your mind, you probably watch porn, have pre marital sex, tell lies, masturbate ect.......and think you are still good hahahah lolz.

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im not perfect - never claim to be
nor are you
but you said that you cannot get rid of sinful behavior without religion - when i unquestionably have.
not ALL of it, but I've rid myself of more things than I'm sure I could have with religion
you can't go against that - ive experienced it

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Im not judging you mumm ra or condeming you...all Im saying is you think with your attitude, that you know more than God and don`t need his advice to be living right...

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please don't ass-ume and put your words in my mouth -
i never claimed any of that, and i never said i dont need god to be living right
to get right to the point - i think just the opposite of all you just said i supposedly think

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Now I ask you this !!!!!! who do you think knows more the creator or the created....humble yourself mumm ra, and accept the wisdom of the almight GOD !!!!!!!!

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who do you think knows more, god or a book?
[edit] and do you think going through a book to get to god is more necessary than going straight to god? [/edit]
i seek god's wisdom everyday zooruka, don't be arrogant and ignorant
and i was made in its image

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Oh .... If your gonna give me some speach about how religion is man made to controlle the masses and you don`t need it to follow God, save it..because we will never agree.

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god doesn't exist within a book

peace zoo ill try to address more later

^^^^^^

peace be with you !

mumm ra

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

i have to make this short cuz i gotta leave.....

im not perfect - never claim to be
nor are you
but you said that you cannot get rid of sinful behavior without religion - when i unquestionably have.
not ALL of it, but I've rid myself of more things than I'm sure I could have with religion
you can't go against that - ive experienced it

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Yeah but mumm ra...what is your basis for right and wrong if you don`t follow religion....what you just imagine what is right or wrong in your own mind ??????? or you get it from secular law ???? well sorry but even secular laws have there basis in religion...so I ask you mumm ra what is your basis for right and wrong and a moral standard if you do it without religion.... I just can`t see where else you could be getting your foundation from ?????.

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

who do you think knows more, god or a book?
i seek god's wisdom everyday zooruka, don't be arrogant and ignorant
and i was made in its image


god doesn't exist within a book

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The book is God`s words mumm ra.


How else does God exist ???? what your going to tell me you have a direct line to God or he sends you pm`s ????? I don`t disagree that God can speak to your heart and mind when he needs to reveal somthing to you, but God primaryly sets his standards and wishes in religion, wich comes in written book form !!!!!....what you are saying really is that God who established religion in a book is wrong and you are right, because you believe he doesn`t exist in a book !!!!! not to mention forsaking thousands of years of history and people who directly encountered God and wrote what they heard and saw....sorry mumm ra now it is you who is being arrogant.


anyway peace


peace be with you !

LOL god sendign pms

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

Yeah but mumm ra...what is your basis for right and wrong if you don`t follow religion....what you just imagine what is right or wrong in your own mind ??????? or you get it from secular law ???? well sorry but even secular laws have there basis in religion...so I ask you mumm ra what is your basis for right and wrong and a moral standard if you do it without religion.... I just can`t see where else you could be getting your foundation from ?????.



The book is God`s words mumm ra.


How else does God exist ???? what your going to tell me you have a direct line to God or he sends you pm`s ????? I don`t disagree that God can speak to your heart and mind when he needs to reveal somthing to you, but God primaryly sets his standards and wishes in religion, wich comes in written book form !!!!!....what you are saying really is that God who established religion in a book is wrong and you are right, because you believe he doesn`t exist in a book !!!!! not to mention forsaking thousands of years of history and people who directly encountered God and wrote what they heard and saw....sorry mumm ra now it is you who is being arrogant.

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i always have trouble transcribing my understanding of god into symbols (words) for others to understand but I'll do my best for you -

everything in the universe is predicated by law.
I'm not talking authoritative law (the ten commandments), but laws that would be true whether we are here to witness them or not.
atoms are made up of protons, electrons, and a nucleus - this is law.
Even the godless person can see the beginning of the universe (big bang?) was not a chaotic random event, but followed strict mathematical law (the makeup of atoms -> molecules -> elements -> )

so now - we have god that made everything according to his wisdom (law) ......
plants/ animals/ nature have no need to intuit god's wisdom (law) as they automatically follow god's laws (nature)
now up to this point - it would be absurd to think everything in the universe is subject to law, except for man's life (including "right & wrong")
though the exception is that man has free will, but it doesn't mean he can't live by god's wisdom (nature/ law) especially if he is the image of god

the fact that you can understand "god's words" from the bible is a testament that man is able to intuit (learn from within) god's wisdom (right from wrong)
have you not ever learned something that wasn't first told to you???

if I am made in the image of god (same attributes) and I have the knowledge of good and evil from the tree of life, there is no reason to think it's impossible to intuit right from wrong without reading about it first.

How do you think the Ancient Egyptians (Kamau) established a moral system (that is much more advanced than "jesus' teachings") BEFORE "jesus" ever made ANY appearance on earth??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat#42...yrus_of_Ani.29
THEY INTUITED GOD'S WISDOM - just as ANYBODY can
(interestingly enough they called god 'NETER'.....i think this is where the word 'nature' comes from)

its not so much god talking to people as it is people opening themselves up to his frequency - and the frequency (law) never shuts off, or is privy to lending itself to one person over the next. it just is.

if you want to believe the ONLY way a person can be moral is to read what other men wrote down in a book - you go ahead and believe that.

if you want to believe that god only made an appearance on his ONLY living planet in the universe for a couple hundred years, then left the ONLY evidence of himself as words in a book to a handful of people two thousand years ago - so that anybody who does not read this book will have NO knowledge of his presence - you go ahead and believe that too.

even a two year old who can't grasp any intellectual concept knows not to attempt to kill it's mother

i think it's pretty ridiculous to think god is everywhere and inside everything, yet think god is imperceptible except when reading the words of man

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

Yes and no....


we can choose what our nature becomes, by the choices we make...eg an man who chooses to do criminal activities, becomes a criminal by nature, but at the same time like I said, it`s not set in stone, because that man was not born that way, he chose to become like that through his choices,so where ever a choice is made that effects your nature, it can always be reversed with an alternative choice and proves that at there core level they where not made to be that way.... same with adam and eve they where not made with a sinful nature as shown in the bible, they became that way after the choice they made (which was to disobey God and choose evil)...So while after the choice human`s became sinful in nature,because we inherited our parents disobeidance, it is not intrinsically who we are at the core level, and therefore can be changed....and like I said this is proven by God giving religion, because if man was always sinful and born that way, religious guidance would be usless, because we couldn`t change who we are because we are born that way, but that is not the case with humans, we became sinful through choice not because that is who we are, and there for we can change.

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after all this -
i really have no clue as to why you are even arguing against my testament that man is not sinful by nature
all you've been doing is reaffirming it for me
and besides im not sure you even know what the word "nature" means, I think you are making up definitions of it as you go -
the nature of something doesn't change. it is it's underlying functions -

the nature that can be changed is not nature - it's a conditioning.

if a person chooses to be a criminal - that is a superimposed conditioning (on top of their free nature!) that can change at any given time, it's not their nature

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So while after the choice human`s became sinful in nature,because we inherited our parents disobeidance

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it is not intrinsically who we are at the core level, and therefore can be changed

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lol - honestly zooruka - you're not even arguing with me, you're confirming my statements, I really don't know why you keep it up
just tell me humans aren't sinful by nature already lol

I just read the first page for now, but I already have few queston (hope they're not already answered):

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

Because that is how God roles...look in the old testement when the jews where in eygpt, and God wanted to set them free..he said to the jews take a lamb and kill it and put the blood on the top of your doors and on your door posts..so when the anger of God came over eygpt and he was going to kill all the first born sons of eygpt , the angle of death would see the blood on the jewish doors and pass over them and not harm the jews..Now in the new testement Jesus became that lamb so when he died all who believe in him and follow him will have his blood on them so when God`s anger comes he will pass over all those who believe in Jesus because they have his blood on them (metaphorically) and escape punishment, also to in the old testement when people sinned they use to sacrifice animals to be abolished of there sins usually a lamb, So God sent jesus as a lamb (that is why he is called the lamb of God) to replace the animal sacrifices and to die once and for all for the sins of mankind , basically he was the ultimate lamb sacrifice.

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1. They taught me, as a good Catholic, that God is good and forgiving. Then why did he kill all those babies - yeah, babies, who didn't have any way of hearing the word of God? And how is he good if he did something evil and unfair as that? And why did he warn only a small group of people and not, at least, Egypt's poor class (there was one, for example they were main builders of pyramids) who were working as hard as Jews and had nothing to do with them being oppressed? Why didn't, at least, they get a notice and message to start believing?

2. Why lamb? What does he get from that? You sin and sin and sin, then you kill an animal on top of that and that counts as a good deed?

3. Not only the men who crucifed Jesus, but basically the whole world except for a certain dozen (one of whom was a traitor, second a coward, third a non-believer [and I like the third guy the most, although the cowardly one seemed like the best guy to roll a fat one with]) killed Jesus as a straight up criminal. Basically, that dozen were the only ones who had nothing to do with him being killed. So how does that count as sacrifice? By my understanding, to make that work, the apostles should slit J.C.'s throat and make a bonefire to have their sins forgiven, 'cause everyone of them was quite full of them, like any other person.

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

i always have trouble transcribing my understanding of god into symbols (words) for others to understand but I'll do my best for you -

everything in the universe is predicated by law.
I'm not talking authoritative law (the ten commandments), but laws that would be true whether we are here to witness them or not.
atoms are made up of protons, electrons, and a nucleus - this is law.
Even the godless person can see the beginning of the universe (big bang?) was not a chaotic random event, but followed strict mathematical law (the makeup of atoms -> molecules -> elements -> )

so now - we have god that made everything according to his wisdom (law) ......
plants/ animals/ nature have no need to intuit god's wisdom (law) as they automatically follow god's laws (nature)
now up to this point - it would be absurd to think everything in the universe is subject to law, except for man's life (including "right & wrong")
though the exception is that man has free will, but it doesn't mean he can't live by god's wisdom (nature/ law) especially if he is the image of god

the fact that you can understand "god's words" from the bible is a testament that man is able to intuit (learn from within) god's wisdom (right from wrong)
have you not ever learned something that wasn't first told to you???

if I am made in the image of god (same attributes) and I have the knowledge of good and evil from the tree of life, there is no reason to think it's impossible to intuit right from wrong without reading about it first.

How do you think the Ancient Egyptians (Kamau) established a moral system (that is much more advanced than "jesus' teachings") BEFORE "jesus" ever made ANY appearance on earth??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat#42...yrus_of_Ani.29
THEY INTUITED GOD'S WISDOM - just as ANYBODY can
(interestingly enough they called god 'NETER'.....i think this is where the word 'nature' comes from)

its not so much god talking to people as it is people opening themselves up to his frequency - and the frequency (law) never shuts off, or is privy to lending itself to one person over the next. it just is.

if you want to believe the ONLY way a person can be moral is to read what other men wrote down in a book - you go ahead and believe that.

if you want to believe that god only made an appearance on his ONLY living planet in the universe for a couple hundred years, then left the ONLY evidence of himself as words in a book to a handful of people two thousand years ago - so that anybody who does not read this book will have NO knowledge of his presence - you go ahead and believe that too.

even a two year old who can't grasp any intellectual concept knows not to attempt to kill it's mother

i think it's pretty ridiculous to think god is everywhere and inside everything, yet think god is imperceptible except when reading the words of man

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this is basically my views as well, i do disagree with a thing or two but essentially this is my outlook.

one problem i have always had is, how can ALL civilizations go from having a polythestic view on God(s) or hold a supreme leader as the Son of God but then completely change there views to a monistic outlook, and so relentlessy credit this world to a singular entity, as being the only "true" way.

i guess i am more of a pagan when it comes to God(s), as i believe that there are so many things it would take multiple amount of deities to create this world. I also try to incorporate all beliefs into my own sphere of knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Bronze Feet

one problem i have always had is, how can ALL civilizations go from having a polythestic view on God(s) or hold a supreme leader as the Son of God but then completely change there views to a monistic outlook, and so relentlessy credit this world to a singular entity, as being the only "true" way.

i guess i am more of a pagan when it comes to God(s), as i believe that there are so many things it would take multiple amount of deities to create this world. I also try to incorporate all beliefs into my own sphere of knowledge.

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damn - check out Metu Neter, book on egyptian spirituality
it actually is exactly what you described - one god working through a multitude of faculties (deities)

i will definitely check that out, thanks Ra

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Originally Posted by Slim T

I just read the first page for now, but I already have few queston (hope they're not already answered):



1. They taught me, as a good Catholic, that God is good and forgiving. Then why did he kill all those babies - yeah, babies, who didn't have any way of hearing the word of God? And how is he good if he did something evil and unfair as that? And why did he warn only a small group of people and not, at least, Egypt's poor class (there was one, for example they were main builders of pyramids) who were working as hard as Jews and had nothing to do with them being oppressed? Why didn't, at least, they get a notice and message to start believing?

2. Why lamb? What does he get from that? You sin and sin and sin, then you kill an animal on top of that and that counts as a good deed?

3. Not only the men who crucifed Jesus, but basically the whole world except for a certain dozen (one of whom was a traitor, second a coward, third a non-believer [and I like the third guy the most, although the cowardly one seemed like the best guy to roll a fat one with]) killed Jesus as a straight up criminal. Basically, that dozen were the only ones who had nothing to do with him being killed. So how does that count as sacrifice? By my understanding, to make that work, the apostles should slit J.C.'s throat and make a bonefire to have their sins forgiven, 'cause everyone of them was quite full of them, like any other person.

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Firstly this is not for you to decide !!!!!!, God is morally rightous more than you will ever be !!!!!!!!!.....he is more against killing than anyone, but ultimately he is the only one who can decide who lives and who die`s because he made everything and his judgement is ALWAYS correct !!!!!!...secondly how do you know that the eygptian poor class was involved in being slaves along with the jews...as far as the bible is concerned the jews where the only ones who where forced to be slaves and do hard labour for there eygptian masters...and as far as we can tell every eygptian in the land approved of this treatment of the jews, so they where all probably equally to balme....


Again...who are we to make judgements about what is pleasing to God and what is not, He saw fit in ancient times to use animal sacrifices to forgive sins,and who are we to criticize this.... Animal sacrifices must have served a purpose in God`s eyes, but after he saw no more need to use it, he put a stop to this , which happend after Jesus came (who was the ultimate sacrifice).



lastly....you say everyone was complicite in the death of Jesus except the disciples....and in a way you are correct we are all to blame for the death of jesus even you and me , because he came to die so our sins could be forgiven and that is why it was a sacrifice !!!!!! because he didn`t do anything wrong and still had to die...but if you actually go back and re read the bible you will see it was the sanhedrin (the jews religious leaders) who wanted jesus dead...and also satan and his army.....and only a few jewish people...but like I said if you read the bible you will see that alot of jews believed in jesus ....just read about his triumphant enterance in jerusalem and what the poeple where doing and shouting about him....Also you called the disciples names, like coward and doubter...( and you are right about judas he was a traitor ) but the rest where good men and I would like to see what you would be like if you where in there shoes and in there postion facing death ect....... ????? Also in the end all of them where heroic because they all went to there deaths for the cause, even though they where innocent and that take a brave man i.m.o...so really you shouldn`t judge what you don`t know.


Look im not having a go at you and you are entitled to your opinion ...I just think you are quick to criticize and judge God and religion...without really knowing all the facts.


anway peace


peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

Firstly this is not for you to decide !!!!!!, God is morally rightous more than you will ever be !!!!!!!!!.....he is more against killing than anyone, but ultimately he is the only one who can decide who lives and who die`s because he made everything and his judgement is ALWAYS correct !!!!!!...secondly how do you know that the eygptian poor class was involved in being slaves along with the jews...as far as the bible is concerned the jews where the only ones who where forced to be slaves and do hard labour for there eygptian masters...and as far as we can tell every eygptian in the land approved of this treatment of the jews, so they where all probably equally to balme...

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theres large archeological work done that shows lower class egyptians were most likely workers and in fact, they were not slaves. neither were the jews actually. discoveries show that most men worked in return they were exempt from taxes, sorta like the feudal system(ironically, manifested by Christian empires). Most likely these Jews occupied the area in northern egypt and were amongst some of the wealthest, even fought for egypt. but when egypt was conquered the new rulers(Hittites, i believe) they enacted such things as slavery, and they dont coincide with dates in the bible and archeology. this is just to my knowledge, i may be wrong, not because of the bible though

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Again...who are we to make judgements about what is pleasing to God and what is not, He saw fit in ancient times to use animal sacrifices to forgive sins,and who are we to criticize this.... Animal sacrifices must have served a purpose in God`s eyes, but after he saw no more need to use it, he put a stop to this , which happend after Jesus came (who was the ultimate sacrifice).

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again, not all religions sacrificed to the Christian ideal of God. Hindus sacrificed bulls to numerous Gods, as did ancient Greeks, Romans and other Indo Europeans.

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lastly....you say everyone was complicite in the death of Jesus except the disciples....and in a way you are correct we are all to blame for the death of jesus even you and me , because he came to die so our sins could be forgiven and that is why it was a sacrifice !!!!!! because he didn`t do anything wrong and still had to die...but if you actually go back and re read the bible you will see it was the sanhedrin (the jews religious leaders) who wanted jesus dead...and also satan and his army.....and only a few jewish people...but like I said if you read the bible you will see that alot of jews believed in jesus ....just read about his triumphant enterance in jerusalem and what the poeple where doing and shouting about him....Also you called the disciples names, like coward and doubter...( and you are right about judas he was a traitor ) but the rest where good men and I would like to see what you would be like if you where in there shoes and in there postion facing death ect....... ????? Also in the end all of them where heroic because they all went to there deaths for the cause, even though they where innocent and that take a brave man i.m.o...so really you shouldn`t judge what you don`t know.

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what about soldiers then? would they we considered disciples? and wouldnt that be a direct contradiction of traditional Christian beliefs, one of non violence?

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Look im not having a go at you and you are entitled to your opinion ...I just think you are quick to criticize and judge God and religion...without really knowing all the facts.

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Just like you criticize Islam without knowing all the facts? The bible cant tell you the Koran is wrong, only if you read the Koran can you decide if it is wrong for you. Practise what you preach!!!

Who created the dinosaurs?

Prof, how do you define what it is that makes use "human beings", something separate from the animals?

or are we just a higher form of animal? if so, what makes us this higher form?

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Originally Posted by Bronze Feet

Prof, how do you define what it is that makes use "human beings", something separate from the animals?

or are we just a higher form of animal? if so, what makes us this higher form?

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Because we are made in the image of God.


Peace be with you !

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:11-13 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)


how can one do greater things if they are stuck feeling like an unworthy servant ?

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Originally Posted by SUNNY WINTERS

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
John 14:11-13 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)


how can one do greater things if they are stuck feeling like an unworthy servant ?

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It is true we as followers in christ do have power to do great things, but the devil has tried to keep us in a state of uselessness, so we don`t use our rights, but when jesus says those who have faith in him, will do greater things he means those who truly believe...and this was proven with the disciples who healed the sick and cast out demons....The reson these things don`t happen today is because, peoples faith is weak and like I said the devil through modern concepts has lead people to believe that the things in the bible only happend back then and are not relevant in todays modern world or even worse they are false also I believe that the devil has set up society aswell so that if people do try to do those things they will be labled a nut job because society has been set up to explain everything with medical science.....this is why people don`t cast out demons or curer the sick today...but that is not to say that these things don`t still happen or are not still possible or relevant...they are !!!!! but the majority of people do not have the faith, but I believe that if a person comes along with real faith he or she could do the things that jesus described....

peace be with you !

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Originally Posted by Mumm Ra

damn - check out Metu Neter, book on egyptian spirituality
it actually is exactly what you described - one god working through a multitude of faculties (deities)

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Which is also similar to Lakota Theology.

HOTEP

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Originally Posted by prof zooruka

It is true we as followers in christ do have power to do great things, but the devil has tried to keep us in a state of uselessness, so we don`t use our rights, but when jesus says those who have faith in him, will do greater things he means those who truly believe...and this was proven with the disciples who healed the sick and cast out demons....The reson these things don`t happen today is because, peoples faith is weak and like I said the devil through modern concepts has lead people to believe that the things in the bible only happend back then and are not relevant in todays modern world or even worse they are false also I believe that the devil has set up society aswell so that if people do try to do those things they will be labled a nut job because society has been set up to explain everything with medical science.....this is why people don`t cast out demons or curer the sick today...but that is not to say that these things don`t still happen or are not still possible or relevant...they are !!!!! but the majority of people do not have the faith, but I believe that if a person comes along with real faith he or she could do the things that jesus described....

peace be with you !

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your faith seems to be very strong - and so are many others