shunning and rejecting luxury and desire

trust me dude, just about everybody spends money they don't have. they have all this shit but they're choking trying to stay above water, struggling to pay bills and paying their debts. it's disgusting and i hate it with a passion. the consumers are highly responsible for their own dumb actions and corporations are blood suckers. all this because people try to fill a certain void that they can't pin point what it is.

that void is from within. i can't even put it into words what it is, but i certainly feel it inside me

Quote:

---

Peace and Love to all instead of going by Survival of The Fittest.

---

I'd say that is definately one of the main problems in the downfall of society. Everybody has such a dog eat dog mentality, and I understand the origin of it all... It's from other people's dog eat dog mentality's. Think about it... Did you ever have somebody come up to you and say something along these lines, "I used to try to help people but everybody only cares about themselves and you wind up getting stepped on, so now I only look out for myself.", Well they just explained why everybody only looks out for themselves, because they have the same mentality as them!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LHX

hahaaaaa
90 posts is a lot to go thru


the main question seems to be this

what constitutes 'life on earth'?

what are these 'arts and sciences' that people deem important?

is life itself not an art and science?

what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?


and as for my original hunch -
if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence


maybe everybody should state in a few words what their point of view is on those issues

maybe we need to open a new thread

marauder
arto
denaturat
tek

drop some feedback

where are we disagreeing?

---

well i think we're disagreeing because we don't know where the others are at. so i'll tell you all what i think, and you can take what you want.

i think we need to break society down, socially and politically, right down to the roots. i think we should all live in mud huts on the beaches of liberia. seriously. we should grow crops, and sing songs and sleep. we should gain wisdom from our brothers and sisters and our elders. we should pass wisdom onto others. we should respect all mankind and all nature. we should have no laws, no police and no money, or rather, money only in moderation (but thats a different discussion altogether)
we should study the stars, the ocean, the sun, the seasons, the animals, the plants. we should love one another as we would like to be loved. we should get rid of all the trappings of 21st century life.
to do this, though, we need a massive, and i mean collosal societal overhaul, which will take decades, even centuries to complete. this means that us, the freethinkers of a linear thinking society, will never see our utopia, but will will plant the seeds for our children to carry on our legacy, to finally arrive at a utopian ideal.

what is the point of proceeding if we cannot even master a sustainable existence on this planet?

i totally agree with this statement, and i beleive some core issues should be addressed before we can think about that next ivory backscratcher.

if we shunned and rejected luxury and desire - we would be a lot better able to have a sustainable existence

i think we could, i think it's possible, but you need tremdous willpower and the co-operation of everyone else to make it work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marauder1

trust me dude, just about everybody spends money they don't have. they have all this shit but they're choking trying to stay above water, struggling to pay bills and paying their debts. it's disgusting and i hate it with a passion. the consumers are highly responsible for their own dumb actions and corporations are blood suckers. all this because people try to fill a certain void that they can't pin point what it is.

that void is from within. i can't even put it into words what it is, but i certainly feel it inside me

---

I feel whole, I just wish I could eat more! The only thing I desire is to be able to get up and build with my people everyday. If I could come home from work hit somebody up and create a cypher and freestyle for 1 or 2 hours I'm happy, and I can go to sleep feeling good. Material items are of no conscern to me.

hell yea this a cut-throat world. personally i've done alot of deeds and given helping hands to friends and family. Yet the only thing that stuck with them was the negativity that i might of provided them. People always remember the bad shit and NEVER the good; and that's word to me.

this is a "what about me?" world, and that's never going to change. which is why this thread is obsolete; but it's healthy to talk about this kind of shit anyway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeknicelStylez

I feel whole, I just wish I could eat more! The only thing I desire is to be able to get up and build with my people everyday. If I could come home from work hit somebody up and create a cypher and freestyle for 1 or 2 hours I'm happy, and I can go to sleep feeling good. Material items are of no conscern to me.

---

i couldnt' agree with you more. unfortunately all of that was taken away from me; so the whip, good credit and money in my pocket doesn't do much for me at all. it's all good tho, marauder staying strong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marauder1

hell yea this a cut-throat world. personally i've done alot of deeds and given helping hands to friends and family. Yet the only thing that stuck with them was the negativity that i might of provided them. People always remember the bad shit and NEVER the good; and that's word to me.

this is a "what about me?" world, and that's never going to change. which is why this thread is obsolete; but it's healthy to talk about this kind of shit anyway

---

i don't think the thread is obsolete. if we can change at least one person's perspective on the way they lead their life, that's enough. if we can get people to challenge the very core essence of their society, then we're not pumping hot air in vain.

building with yall motherfuckers is the only good thing i experience most days

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arto

i don't think the thread is obsolete. if we can change at least one person's perspective on the way they lead their life, that's enough. if we can get people to challenge the very core essence of their society, then we're not pumping hot air in vain.

---

but if you want topple ideas you need to have the ability to rebuild. if I say down with A, it is eqully important to be able to show that B is better. if you are in the middle of the ocean on shoddy wooden raft that goes nowhere, you need to find a new vessel before you completely distroy the one you are using.

all of this that takes a lot of learning and thinking. it's something that I personally pursue, but I have not yet figured out with absolute certainty how an ideal society should be organized. the journey of investigating involves questioning everything, not just the status quo but the proposed alternatives.

when i question your posts it is not for the purpose of attacking you personally put for the purpose of testing your ideas to see if they withstand objections. that is a basic dialectic method of ancient greeks such as socrates and is just as useful today. in the process you learn, even where you disagree with someone.

^so what conclusions have you come to so far with your ponderings?

by shunning desire, wouldn't that like diminsh a vital part of existence?, yeah late to discussion and all. but to shun desire is not on par with luxury.

desire what's good. not all luxuries good. it becomes a value question. it's value to you and what kind of future investment you can get out.

in this day and age, the basics are luxuries in the foirst world - which purports the biggest machine that sells them.

before you acquire an item you have some desire. it doesn't have to be over the top luxury. that would be not discerning wants/needs from crass consumerism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galt john galt

by shunning desire, wouldn't that like diminsh a vital part of existence?, yeah late to discussion and all. but to shun desire is not on par with luxury.

desire what's good. not all luxuries good. it becomes a value question. it's value to you and what kind of future investment you can get out.

in this day and age, the basics are luxuries in the foirst world - which purports the biggest machine that sells them.

before you acquire an item you have some desire. it doesn't have to be over the top luxury. that would be not discerning wants/needs from crass consumerism.

---

what is your insight on the difference between desire and need?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Unseen

^so what conclusions have you come to so far with your ponderings?

---

I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed.

Quote:

---

I realised that political philosophy requires very deep understanding of many issues. Begin by trying to figure out what makes people happy. Not just you, but others as well. Then try to figure out how to organize society in such a way that maximises the potential for a broad spectrum of personalities to achieve a good level of happiness i. You also need to have at least a basic appreciation of economics to understand the possible practical implications of organizing society in a particular way. What you may have initially thought would be a great idea might have nasty unintended consequences. Finally, it is important to know history in order to have a practical appreciation of possible consequences of various political systems. Do not ignore facts. All in all, you need to be very careful not to be guided by idealism alone. Some things work well on paper but when scrutinised carefully may be seriously flawed.

---

Well thought out. I couldn't agree more. I dont think you can force an entirely different life style on a whole nation of people and expect to them to accept it without serious resistance. I think a lot of the things you think a society would need are answered by capitalism. It provides people the opportunity to do whatever it is that they desire. The problem is that corperate greed has driven everything to a state of excess that is balanced out by abject poverty. I'd like to see things come closer to the middle. All my thoughts revolve around ways to make it happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Unseen

Well thought out. I couldn't agree more. I dont think you can force an entirely different life style on a whole nation of people and expect to them to accept it without serious resistance. I think a lot of the things you think a society would need are answered by capitalism. It provides people the opportunity to do whatever it is that they desire. The problem is that corperate greed has driven everything to a state of excess that is balanced out by abject poverty. I'd like to see things come closer to the middle. All my thoughts revolve around ways to make it happen.

---

I think this may be solved within the current system, for example legislating laws that are environmentally friendly and that adress the practical inequality of opportunity. Better funding for those who cannot afford education (not just loans, but funding and allowance like they have in parts of Europe). When more young people are in school and have at least some money from the government, they will be less involved in crime, thus there would be less strain on the criminal justice system.

I'm cool with tax breaks for small private corporations, but something has to be done with the way public corporations use their money. There could be more socially beneficial uses for that. I don't think that white collar types should make the same money as a grocery store cashier. They're jobs require skill and involve stress and they should be compensated proportionally.

I think the bottom line is gradual redistribution of wealth, but a redistribution that is still fair and practical. In canada for example, skilled workers make pretty good money. I think they should be paid well. I also think it is fair for a professional to be paid a bit more.

the obstacle: we do not have parties which inspire confidence that they will deliver such a comprehensive package. it is still a radical change. and even if you have a good party, people need to vote them in. only then can they pass laws I outlined above.

I know a lot of people here criticise consumerist society and I see the argument. but liberal capitalist democracy does not prevent anyone from leading a spiritual no materialistic lifestyle. Even if you overthrow the system, do you think all will suddenly achieve enlightenement and become poets and philosphers? there are still many people who are happy with multicoloured cell phones, old navy and clubbing. capitalism exists because people want stuff. although, I admit capitalism has a way of convincing people that they should buy more than they need. well, we don't have to give in to advertising, do we? it's choice.

I also find that as you succeed in modern society, that is even if you start at the bottom and move your way up, there are less incentives for you to make changes in favour of those that are less advantaged. you get a false sense of entitlement. but maybe even though you were poor, there were subtle advantages you had that others didn't. maybe you were smarter or more motivated. but just becuase you are it does not mean others do not deserve the same level of happiness as you do. there must be a minimum standard for all.

...this is all open to debate.