Religion... And Its Meaning

Oh what did I start!! I mean.. Im sorry for opening a thread like this...
but these are questions that Im pretty sure are on peoples thoughts...
people wonder about this all the time. .I thank you all for your opinions and insight.. I dont think its a boring topic though

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Originally Posted by LikwidSwordz

God - 1.the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

Thats from dictionary.com

The supreme being of this Universe is God, and his name is Jehovah/Yahweh. And this isnt my opinion, its the Bible.

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Do you believe everything in the bible??

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

"22:73 O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!"

The Quran -Translation Chapter: Al-Hajj



ur a god?

create something then!

snatch something from an insect!!!

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why do you underestimate yourself?

just because you forgot how to do it doesnt mean you cant do it


give yourself some credit

all you need is some time and practice



we are all rooting for you

Time, practice and better drugs.

Religion= mythological struture in which to frame history, and psychological and mystical experiences. A collection of symbols basicly. Problem of our age= taken literally.

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

"22:73 O men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!"

The Quran -Translation Chapter: Al-Hajj



ur a god?

create something then!

snatch something from an insect!!!

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Easy ya ahki. I feel your frustration, but you gotta remember that some people just don't know. Knowledge comes in degrees, but these days, people have the choice of knowing or not knowing. Some seek their own truth and some seek THE truth. You, me and those who claim divinity know that no one down here can create as The Creator can Create. Sure, we can build, grow and shape, but all of this takes time. None of us can think of what we want and say, "Be!", then have it appear right? Patience is key yo. Prophet Isa, peace be upon him once said, "There are two kinds of people in the world, the sick and the healthy. Be merciful to the sick and give thanks to God for health."

I still gotta cop your album too son. I ain't forgot about you.

Peace

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

some people just don't know.

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just dont know what?

that man is only limited by his own imagination?


you wanna see me create a fly?
lets finish tearing down this society and then go live in a garden for a few hundred years

ill make you all sorts of flies

even let you name them

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Originally Posted by LHX

just dont know what?

that man is only limited by his own imagination?


you wanna see me create a fly?
lets finish tearing down this society and then go live in a garden for a few hundred years

ill make you all sorts of flies

even let you name them

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Wow.
It's an eerie feeling to see what you've read manifested before your very eyes.

Qur'an-16:4 "He Created man from a drop of fluid, yet lo! he stands forth as an open opponent!":yessad:

Now, with all due respect, I was talking to Rah, not you. I have no need to explain it because he'll know what I mean because it was meant for people like him. If you don't like it then I can't help you.

The fact of the matter is, you can't create anything on a the level that's being discussed. Regardless of what you say. You don't have that kind of power. It's not creating a fly, it's snatching something from a fly that was the challenge. Read the parable, it says, "O Mankind...", not just one person. Which clearly tells you, no one in the history of human events was ever able to do what is being described. All anyone will ever be able to do is say, "I could do it if I felt like it, I just don't want to right now." Which is even more comical than the subject at hand in my opinion.

The point of the parable, since it seems to escape people even now, is that there is none outside of The Most High that mankind chooses to call upon besides Him that can create anything. That includes the statues, plants and various people that people choose to pray to other than God Himself. Personally, I could care less what you do with your own time, because it doesn't affect me either way. This was to explain the point Rah was trying to make to those less inclined to think. Or, perhaps, those afraid to do so on this particular subject. The same helplessness we have in divine creation is the same we have in snatching something from a fly. The snatching from the fly would be easier because at least we can grasp what we're trying to do. Creation is an act of sheer will. In our case, it's an act of will, study, and hard work. No one down here can say one word, just one word, and have whatever they thought of, be it a fly or a new continent, appear all of a sudden. That kind of power wasn't given to us and the more I observe people's behavior, the happier I am that the lot of us have forgotten about the powers that we DO have. The idea that it's possible for mankind, a creature barely in control of itself, to do such things, reminds me a bit of Greco-Roman mythology. I.E. it's completely absurd.

Say what you will, you can't create anything that you aren't allowed to create. Even when it's created, it eventually passes away due to imperfection. The world we live in is a sign in itself because it has more than one world within it. On land, we have certain creatures and environments. Under the land, we have completely different creatures and environments. Under the sea is a whole nother world as well. Species of creatures still roam all 3 worlds that haven't been identified by our precious scientists to this day. Mankind had absolutely NOTHING to do with the creation of these worlds or the creatures in them. If anything, we have a direct claim to their destruction. We feel that because we're at the top of the food chain, we're above creation all together. Forgetting all too often that when we die, our bodies return to the same patch of dirt from which they came. It would take years for any one of us to be able to create another living thing from sheer 'handiwork'. Look at cloning and you'll see another group of people in desperate need to play God. Even so, that's not real power. The day a man, woman, child or beast, raises forth their hand/paw/tentacle etc. and reverses the cycle of the sun, changes the seasons in the blink of an eye, or raises the Atlanteans from the dead so they can tell us word for word how their nation perished, then I'll believe they have power, but if they can't, and they most certainly can't, then they should be wary of what they say.

I'm with LHX on this one. The issue isn't what we can or can't create. The issue is whether or not we can reach consensus on what has and hasn't been created. That means that we're not looking for the existence of any particular thing, but instead measuring the depth of its existence. Does it exist in relationship to an individual? A collection of individuals? Or perhaps "all" individuals? The power of God isn't creation, but persuasion.

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Originally Posted by Os3y3ris

The power of God isn't creation, but persuasion.

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To what end?? You make it sound as if He needs us to believe in him. The power of God is manifested in everything seen and unseen. Known and unknown. Creation is the foundation of all of the above mentioned fields. This is where belief and disbelief begin to manifest as well, apparently. One thing is certain, all the people who thrive on "what ifs", I'd pay good money to see their faces when death approaches because with such care-free and pseudo-philosophical convictions ans beliefs, they shouldn't be afraid of a damn thing at that point.

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

Wow.
It's an eerie feeling to see what you've read manifested before your very eyes.

Qur'an-16:4 "He Created man from a drop of fluid, yet lo! he stands forth as an open opponent!":yessad:

Now, with all due respect, I was talking to Rah, not you. I have no need to explain it because he'll know what I mean because it was meant for people like him. If you don't like it then I can't help you.

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its not a matter of liking it or disliking it
its a matter of calling nonsense nonsense


LHX-42:7 "He calleth bullshit wherever it may appeareth, and seeks not to duck away from those crafty in speech, who would have the people settle for something lessereth than what they areth"


and i dont oppose the most high

i spend every breath seeking to understand him/it better and i understand enuf not to sell myself short

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

The fact of the matter is, you can't create anything on a the level that's being discussed. Regardless of what you say. You don't have that kind of power. It's not creating a fly, it's snatching something from a fly that was the challenge. Read the parable, it says, "O Mankind...", not just one person. Which clearly tells you, no one in the history of human events was ever able to do what is being described. All anyone will ever be able to do is say, "I could do it if I felt like it, I just don't want to right now." Which is even more comical than the subject at hand in my opinion.

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lmfao

my challenge still stands

lets finish dismantling this society
lets find heaven
and THEN i will listen to you tell me what i can and cannot do

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

The point of the parable, since it seems to escape people even now, is that there is none outside of The Most High that mankind chooses to call upon besides Him that can create anything. That includes the statues, plants and various people that people choose to pray to other than God Himself. Personally, I could care less what you do with your own time, because it doesn't affect me either way. This was to explain the point Rah was trying to make to those less inclined to think. Or, perhaps, those afraid to do so on this particular subject.

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i dont see what is scary about complete submission to something bigger than you

its reassuring

it also makes you not afraid to be attacked and persecuted in the court of public perception


its on you if you are afraid to accept the responsibility for everything there is, has been, or will be

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

The same helplessness we have in divine creation is the same we have in snatching something from a fly. The snatching from the fly would be easier because at least we can grasp what we're trying to do. Creation is an act of sheer will. In our case, it's an act of will, study, and hard work. No one down here can say one word, just one word, and have whatever they thought of, be it a fly or a new continent, appear all of a sudden. That kind of power wasn't given to us and the more I observe people's behavior, the happier I am that the lot of us have forgotten about the powers that we DO have. The idea that it's possible for mankind, a creature barely in control of itself, to do such things, reminds me a bit of Greco-Roman mythology. I.E. it's completely absurd.

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its definitely not possible for somebody with your mentality

you can create 47 universes in the time it takes to excrete your morning shit

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

Say what you will, you can't create anything that you aren't allowed to create.

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i agree

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

Even when it's created, it eventually passes away due to imperfection.

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swing and a miss

you can create things that endure

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

The world we live in is a sign in itself because it has more than one world within it. On land, we have certain creatures and environments. Under the land, we have completely different creatures and environments. Under the sea is a whole nother world as well. Species of creatures still roam all 3 worlds that haven't been identified by our precious scientists to this day.

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you doubt my ability to 'snatch something from a fly'

i put it on you to provide a visual demonstration of these '3 worlds' and something travelling thru them

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Originally Posted by Shropsher_Slasher

Mankind had absolutely NOTHING to do with the creation of these worlds or the creatures in them. If anything, we have a direct claim to their destruction. We feel that because we're at the top of the food chain, we're above creation all together. Forgetting all too often that when we die, our bodies return to the same patch of dirt from which they came. It would take years for any one of us to be able to create another living thing from sheer 'handiwork'. Look at cloning and you'll see another group of people in desperate need to play God. Even so, that's not real power. The day a man, woman, child or beast, raises forth their hand/paw/tentacle etc. and reverses the cycle of the sun, changes the seasons in the blink of an eye, or raises the Atlanteans from the dead so they can tell us word for word how their nation perished, then I'll believe they have power, but if they can't, and they most certainly can't, then they should be wary of what they say.

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you trying to convince the forum? or yourself?

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The power of God isn't creation, but persuasion.

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this forum used to be quite intellectual...now we are reduced to statements like this...if youve got a point to make about GOD, try and bring some evidence, otherwise your just a donkey carrying words.

Slasher, jazakhallah kheir for expanding on my post...im not frustrated, it was more a figure of speech...the bottom line is, we are laymen and not scholars, therefore if we seek a path of knowledge, it must be gradual. How are you gonna get someone whos lived a mentally "dead" life (not referring to anyone) to suddenly start callin himself a manifestation of God, and start dwelling on topics which he shouldnt be dwelling on, since his understanding is lacking, and this will surely lead one to deviation.

For example, in the issue of "god within us" this is a fancy statement that "gurus" and religious men love to use to attract followers. Either this or the subject has been misinterpreted throughout the ages. This may be due to a lack of knowledge or understading on the part of the person.

I found a much more intellectually defined answer, in the teachings of the righteous Sufis, who uphold a doctrine that these bogus gurus only wish they could.

GOD/ALLAH, has 99 names, of which these names are attributes. These attributes manifest themselves in various aspects of Creation. For example, if you see a beautiful rose, that is a manifestation of "Beautiful" and Allah/God is "Most Beautiful". If you see wisdom in a man...that is a manifestation of "Wise" and Allah/God is "Most Wise"...all of Creation except man represents certain attributes, but man has been blessed to represent all of them. But you can only reach this state from true and total submission to God, finding your path to God, as it frees man from his evil desires of "self". This is a path which, only very disciplined people succeed in taking.

LHX, i think your points have a basis, yet are in the wrong, due to your lack of understanding, or reading from the wrong sources. Me myself, have very limited knoweldge too, and even explaining what i explained is going "over" what i should be writing about. Yet, i think you'll agree it is a deeper meaning to what you suggested, and i hope you study the field more, this goes for myself too.

here are a couple of good links:

http://www.humanevol.com/doc/doc200207291196.html

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2007...ibutes-on.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muraqabah

PEACE

Peace Quest - i will respond to you more later

hopefully you will stick around but i have to run right now


i would like to continue this dialog tho - i dont think its all bad



part of it is you yourself taking responsibility to improve things

Peace

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

this forum used to be quite intellectual...now we are reduced to statements like this...if youve got a point to make about GOD, try and bring some evidence, otherwise your just a donkey carrying words.

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low blow

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

Slasher, jazakhallah kheir for expanding on my post...im not frustrated, it was more a figure of speech...the bottom line is, we are laymen and not scholars, therefore if we seek a path of knowledge, it must be gradual. How are you gonna get someone whos lived a mentally "dead" life (not referring to anyone) to suddenly start callin himself a manifestation of God, and start dwelling on topics which he shouldnt be dwelling on, since his understanding is lacking, and this will surely lead one to deviation.

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a scholar seeks to be a layman and seeks to reduce things to terms that can be understood by laymen

also:
its not that it must be gradual - its just that its more comfortable when its gradual

severe trauma, near-death experiences, and poverty all have a way of fast-forwarding the process

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

For example, in the issue of "god within us" this is a fancy statement that "gurus" and religious men love to use to attract followers. Either this or the subject has been misinterpreted throughout the ages. This may be due to a lack of knowledge or understading on the part of the person.

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this is true

and it is unfortunate that such a truth has been manipulated for individual gain

trust it - those people suffer, have suffered, and will continue to suffer for leading others astray

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

I found a much more intellectually defined answer, in the teachings of the righteous Sufis, who uphold a doctrine that these bogus gurus only wish they could.

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just so everybody knows - Sufis are human beings just like everybody else

personally, i love and respect sufism and if forced to put a conventional label on myself, it would be a toss up between a Sufi and a Taoist

which is basically the same thing at root

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

GOD/ALLAH, has 99 names, of which these names are attributes. These attributes manifest themselves in various aspects of Creation. For example, if you see a beautiful rose, that is a manifestation of "Beautiful" and Allah/God is "Most Beautiful". If you see wisdom in a man...that is a manifestation of "Wise" and Allah/God is "Most Wise"...all of Creation except man represents certain attributes, but man has been blessed to represent all of them. But you can only reach this state from true and total submission to God, finding your path to God, as it frees man from his evil desires of "self". This is a path which, only very disciplined people succeed in taking.

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i am very familiar with the 99+1 attributes

thats why i understand that if my motives are in the right place and i seek to do right, that even if i fuck it up, i will still be forgiven and loved unconditionally

thats dad we are talking about here

right now he wants us to clean up the house

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

LHX, i think your points have a basis, yet are in the wrong, due to your lack of understanding, or reading from the wrong sources. Me myself, have very limited knoweldge too, and even explaining what i explained is going "over" what i should be writing about. Yet, i think you'll agree it is a deeper meaning to what you suggested, and i hope you study the field more, this goes for myself too.

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all day every day

that is not a exaggeration

dont make the error of projecting your own perceived shortcomings on others

more and more - this insistence of a 'higher power' than self is looking like a cop out on the behalf of people who are looking for a scape goat rather than facing their responsibility for the universe

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Originally Posted by Golden_Armz

here are a couple of good links:

http://www.humanevol.com/doc/doc200207291196.html

http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2007...ibutes-on.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muraqabah

PEACE

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i will check those links

here are some for you:

www.subgenius.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

http://myspace-735.vo.llnwd.net/0058...83458735_l.jpg

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a scholar seeks to be a layman and seeks to reduce things to terms that can be understood by laymen

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most of the time, a scholar has been a layman, before he becomes a scholar. What i mean by the original statement, is that some issues are for scholarly debate, and if debated by laymen should have some evidence to back it up. Also not every scholar seeks to make his work understandable to laymen. Some scholars dont allow laymen to read their books.

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also:
its not that it must be gradual - its just that its more comfortable when its gradual

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In the context you understood my point i agree. In the context that i meant, is people should start with certain basics, before moving on higher knowledge.

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just so everybody knows - Sufis are human beings just like everybody else

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i didnt say they were divine. I said some groups methods is the one i look up to. Some Sufis i have doubts about.

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personally, i love and respect sufism and if forced to put a conventional label on myself, it would be a toss up between a Sufi and a Taoist

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theres a difference between loving and respecting, and actually believing what they believe, and acting upon that. I think thats more important.

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i am very familiar with the 99+1 attributes

thats why i understand that if my motives are in the right place and i seek to do right, that even if i fuck it up, i will still be forgiven and loved unconditionally

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My arguement is that there is only one GOD. Not in any other other context, such as within, without, external, internal. But one GOD who Created man, because He said so! Therefore if you say your familiar with 99 names, you would see the complexity of creation and not make statements dangerous to your "self".

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dont make the error of projecting your own perceived shortcomings on others

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well, i realise and i hope you realise, that the more you learn, the more you find out how much you dont know. Also im always careful to stress that i am no scholar, just a student of the universe, therefore i approach my limited knowledge humbly.

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more and more - this insistence of a 'higher power' than self is looking like a cop out on the behalf of people who are looking for a scape goat rather than facing their responsibility for the universe

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In contrast, the God fearing peoples of say Medieval Islam, made an obligation to study the sciences of life, and they progressed greatly inspiring the european renaissance. I think the point you make has some interesting issues we should deal with, but one who understands the majesty of the creator will seek to find, no?

PEACE