ISLAM...some questions

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Originally Posted by sarr

Dont you understand? Juesus was God in the physical form, a being shown to us, so we as humans can learn how to pray, how to live, how to act and how to treat eachother. Why couldnt this be possible if Gods power is infinite?

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Listen, I understand that but there's something a lot of people miss on, Jesus's power's weren't infinite because he only had what God had given him. Jesus states this several times throughout the Gospels. To say that All of God, Creator of the Entire Universe and All Life as We know it was condensed down into a single living breathing entity is a falsehood. The Spirit of God was within Jesus and moreso than any other human being has perhaps ever been gifted with but THEY ARE NOT an Even Exchange for as great as Jesus's power and love was they were not equal to the Father. It says as much in the Bible if you have the eyes to see.


And if they were one and the same as some would suggest, then why would Jesus pray to God? What need does God have for Himself to Pray. Who would he pray to?

Because he was showing Humans how to pray...showing us that in times of need..we need to pray to God. If he acted self righteuous, we wouldnt have learned as much. Jesus was acting like the perfect human and at the same time was God incorporated into flesh and bone.

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Originally Posted by sarr

like i said...there was a Turkish family here in Australia. The daughter told the family she converted to Christianity...the father (a Doctor - an educated man) reacted how? by pulling out a knife and trying to kill her...accidently killing the mother instead.

Does it not say a little something?

Where every Christian family i know who has lost a daughter to Islam, doesnt act this way.

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ever read up on the Spanish inquisition

the Salem Witch Trials?


maybe not so much today and thank God for that but Christians from a historical stand-point aren't without blood on their hands.

I can't really speak for entire Muslim countries or even Muslim families as I have close associations with neither, I simply read the Quran. This aspect of things would be better answered by Han or the like. Something that is big in sociology is that you can't judge another culture by your own standards as they're often like names, they really don't translate. I can only attest for what's actually written in the Quran.

Sarr:

Because he was showing Humans how to pray...showing us that in times of need..we need to pray to God. If he acted self righteuous, we wouldnt have learned as much. Jesus was acting like the perfect human and at the same time was God incorporated into flesh and bone.






Some people clearly do not understand mathematics.


If God = Jesus + The Father + The Holy Ghost

Then Jesus = 1/3 of God.

How could Jesus = God????????????????????????????

:no:

Show me some math.

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Originally Posted by sarr

Because he was showing Humans how to pray...showing us that in times of need..we need to pray to God. If he acted self righteuous, we wouldnt have learned as much. Jesus was acting like the perfect human and at the same time was God incorporated into flesh and bone.

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The spirit of God and God Himself I don't take for one and the same (well they are the same but its like if the average human has a raindrop, Jesus would've had an overflowing cup, and God Himself is the Ocean). Jesus prayed because he recognized the seperation and it states many times over in the Bible as such. You have the spirit of God within you just as I have the spirit of God within me. That is the true universal brotherhood but none of us are God the Creator by ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Robert

I don't have a particular problem with Islam anymore then I do with other religions.

However, I will say this: There are numerous honour killings in countries with predominately muslim faith. The overall treatment of women in many of these countries is inhumane, not just socially but by law.

Despite the fact that the majority of (moderate) muslims do not carry these acts out does it not suggest something about the nature of the religion that these atrocities are so widespread?

Or is it more a reflection of the human condition?

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Would one of you friendly people like to address this?

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Originally Posted by Robert

Would one of you friendly people like to address this?

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"Honour" killings are tradition. It has nothing to do with religion.

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Originally Posted by diggy

"Honour" killings are tradition. It has nothing to do with religion.

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That is a cop out.

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Originally Posted by Robert

Would one of you friendly people like to address this?

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I can't really speak for entire Muslim countries or even Muslim families as I have close associations with neither, I simply read the Quran. This aspect of things would be better answered by Han or the like. Something that is big in sociology is that you can't judge another culture by your own standards as they're often like names, they really don't translate. I can only attest for what's actually written in the Quran.

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I kinda already did (atleast as much as I can)

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Originally Posted by Robert

Would one of you friendly people like to address this?

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Let us consider the following example, narrated by Tabari on the authority of Abu Hurayrah who said: "One night when I returned from the Prophet's Mosque after offering Isha Prayers, I saw a woman standing outside my door. I said 'Peace be on you' and went into my room, closed the door, and began to offer nafl (supererogatory) Prayers. After some time, she knocked at the door. I opened the door and asked her what she wanted. 'I have come to ask you a question. I committed adultery and became pregnant. Then a baby was born and I killed him. I have come to ask you if there is any chance that my sin be forgiven?' I said: 'Absolutely not'. At this she went away grief-stricken, exclaiming: 'Alas, this piece of beauty was created for the Hell-fire.'

"The next day, after the Fajr prayers, I narrated the whole incident to the Prophet (peace be on him). He said: 'How wrong an answer you gave, O Abu Hurayrah! Have you not read those verses in the Quran: "Those who invoke no other deity along with Allah nor take the life which Allah has forbidden – save justly; who do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse – and whoso does that shall meet its penalty, his torment shall be doubled for him on the Day of Resurrection and he shall abide in it in ignominy – unless he who repents and believes and does righteous works. For such Allah will change their evil deeds to good deeds. Allah is Ever Forgiving, Most Compassionate. Whosoever repents and does good, he returns to Allah in the manner he should" (Al-Furqan 25:68-70). Upon hearing this answer from the Prophet (Peace be on him), I went out and searched for the woman. I met her after Isha Prayers and told her what the Prophet (peace be on him) had said. She prostrated herself and said, 'Thanks be to God, Who has opened the door of forgiveness for me.' Then she repented and freed a female slave and also the son of that slave." (See Tabari, 'Tafsir', comments on Surah al-Furqan 25:68-70 Ed.)


Honour Killings are unjust killings often committed by people who want justification for their anger. They therefore use Islam.

I admit that the Quran has tough words against certain "wrong-doings" but Muhammad put it all in context with the above "Hadith".

Thank you Prince Rai. I appreciate that.

trying to discuss religion with you guys is like bouncing my head against a brick wall

I am still in touch with the catholic friar I used to play chess with once a month and he has nothing but respect for my religion and he says if it has resulted in me giving up alcohol (one of the biggest burdens in my life) among other things then it can only be a good thing. He says as long as I stay on the straight and narrow and worship god then it doesn't matter which religion I choose.

I think its a joke that you think the fact that Im born in a christian country means I should be christian though. Islam has done many great things for my life, I have truely found peace with islam and i would never abandon my religion now, its my whole life and when I get married Inshallah and get a job and have children etc etc it will all be for Allah.

Sarr and prof zooburuka what you are both saying is incredibly small minded and divisive. FOrtunately I know that not all christians are like you. My religion teaches that some of the holy prophets mentioned in the bible and torah are good men and so I can learn about my own religion by discussing religion in them and if I do talk rleigion I dont mention the "son of god" because I dont wish to argue with them, I wish to give thanks and praise to Allah, which is something I can do in a discussion with muslims, christians AND jews.

your arguements are a Joke and you have sidestepped so many good points that you couldn't answer I fail to se ethe point in this discussion. Answer my one point though.

2billion muslims. APPARENTLY our holy book teaches us to kill non muslims etc. Why are there so many of us living in peace amongst the rest of you? What do you think would happen if 1 third of the worlds population were suicide bombers or al qeda sympathisers? Are you telling me us 2billion got it wrong and you two people who have read a few carefully selected verse have gotten it right? Should I now start thinking of leaving Islam or making bombs? How can you be the one who talks of peace when you are preaching rleigious intolerance against 2billion people? I only ever say good things about christianity, I see your actions as misguided and destructive in achieving true world peace

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Originally Posted by dawood

2billion muslims. APPARENTLY our holy book teaches us to kill non muslims etc. Why are there so many of us living in peace amongst the rest of you? What do you think would happen if 1 third of the worlds population were suicide bombers or al qeda sympathisers? Are you telling me us 2billion got it wrong and you two people who have read a few carefully selected verse have gotten it right? Should I now start thinking of leaving Islam or making bombs? How can you be the one who talks of peace when you are preaching rleigious intolerance against 2billion people? I only ever say good things about christianity, I see your actions as misguided and destructive in achieving true world peace

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good point.

many people are so convinced that their chosen philosophy is THE ONE, that they wilfully start a crusade against any other way of life branding them inherently bad.

I have learnt over the years that people don't ever really debate but utilise debating "skills" whereby they sidestep what the other person says and include arguments totally alien to the conversation or repeating themselves in different ways sidestepping as you mentioned, valuable comments that you suggest.

people often think that actions must be physical, but the strongest actions are in the mind.

"I don't have a particular problem with Islam anymore then I do with other religions.

However, I will say this: There are numerous honour killings in countries with predominately muslim faith. The overall treatment of women in many of these countries is inhumane, not just socially but by law.

Despite the fact that the majority of (moderate) muslims do not carry these acts out does it not suggest something about the nature of the religion that these atrocities are so widespread?

Or is it more a reflection of the human condition?"

it is most certainly a reflection of the human condition. I cannot give an explanation as good as prince rai's as I cannot articulate like that and dont have as much knowledge of the hadith yet but does the IRA bombings reflect roman catholic teachings? If I convert to hinduism and then go and kill a school full of children does this fault lay in hinduism or in my own character faults? Islam is perfect. FOllowed properly people will never do horrible things. If someone sins, and then realises afterwrads that they have sinned and truely repent they will be forgiven as long as they make efforts to be a better person and do good deeds in teh name of ALlah, exactly as in prince rai's hadith. If someone knowingly sins and thinks "oh well, I can be forgiven afterwards" this is a much different scenario. Allah knows our intentions as well as our actions. Before the pophet muhammed SAW brought islam to arabia, men were burying their children alive if they were female as they wanted a male born son. Muhammed SAW put a stop to this. Do you think he ever said it was lawful to kill children in the name of Islam? A true christian or Jew should also be welcomed into paradise if tehy follow their rleigion properly although my reversion to Islam was because I believe it is the most perfect form of the religions of God and alhamdulila it was the best thing I have ever done.

Its sad to see such ignorance regarding such a great religion

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Originally Posted by dawood

"I don't have a particular problem with Islam anymore then I do with other religions.

However, I will say this: There are numerous honour killings in countries with predominately muslim faith. The overall treatment of women in many of these countries is inhumane, not just socially but by law.

Despite the fact that the majority of (moderate) muslims do not carry these acts out does it not suggest something about the nature of the religion that these atrocities are so widespread?

Or is it more a reflection of the human condition?"

it is most certainly a reflection of the human condition. I cannot give an explanation as good as prince rai's as I cannot articulate like that and dont have as much knowledge of the hadith yet but does the IRA bombings reflect roman catholic teachings? If I convert to hinduism and then go and kill a school full of children does this fault lay in hinduism or in my own character faults? Islam is perfect. FOllowed properly people will never do horrible things. If someone sins, and then realises afterwrads that they have sinned and truely repent they will be forgiven as long as they make efforts to be a better person and do good deeds in teh name of ALlah, exactly as in prince rai's hadith. If someone knowingly sins and thinks "oh well, I can be forgiven afterwards" this is a much different scenario. Allah knows our intentions as well as our actions. Before the pophet muhammed SAW brought islam to arabia, men were burying their children alive if they were female as they wanted a male born son. Muhammed SAW put a stop to this. Do you think he ever said it was lawful to kill children in the name of Islam? A true christian or Jew should also be welcomed into paradise if tehy follow their rleigion properly although my reversion to Islam was because I believe it is the most perfect form of the religions of God and alhamdulila it was the best thing I have ever done.

Its sad to see such ignorance regarding such a great religion

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I totally agree with you and with Prince rai 's words... I want to add that alot of muslim countries give the women their proper rights .. I'll take my country as example :

El Habib Bourguiba the first president after the french colonisation gave the women a status that is superior to what we knew at the time, he gave them the right to divorce, to abort and forbid the polygamy. (before Italy and some european countries) that was in 1959.

And I think these ho,or killing are more about culture than religion.