Does Geometry prove a God's Existence?

While I was lecturing at a new jersey college this spring semester, a student posed a question to me about what i had just presented...

the student posed an interesting question that i thought i would post here

The point / question he raised to me was as follows

" how can you say that "god" doesn't exist or that there isnt anything
"greater" or some kind of all knowing intelligent force"? doesnt the
concept of geometry in and of itself mean that there has to be a god? (I
knew what he was getting at but i asked him to explain because i wanted the student to articulate it for the class)

His point was, even if we assume that the big bang and
all of that did occurr... and that evolution did indeed occur etc etc,,
there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe.

for example, how can man explain a triangle? a triangle has intrinsic
properties of logic tied into it! (those being in particular the
pythagorean theorum) c squared = a squared + b squared... also other
gemetric properties of the triangle have no explanation.. how does man
explain that a right angle is 90 degrees and that no matter what every
triangle will always be 180 degress etc etc...

this argument is a good one, but is indeed fallible and flawed in my view and reasoning.....

just wanted to post this here to fuel discussion....

do u agree or disagree with this student who presented a seemingly
"rational" argument for the existence of an "intelligent" force?

Pff, yeah but shit like that triangles are always 180 doesn't mean that it has to be god "intelligent force" that created it. Triangles are figures we earths made up, you don't find it in nature right. Im not that much into it though.

A better example should be the ball form, cause thats real.

"there still has to be some "force" that governs or is in control of the
natural laws of our universe. "

yea. and that force is gravity. there's no such thing as God, or anything like that. it's pure bullshit. God is man made.

Man I dont know, that stuff is confusing lol

hmm it's a good argument.
i think proportions of human body are good argument too. i know that it's evolution, but still body of a healthy man has perfect geometrical proportions.

indeed

this is a good "rational" type of argument for a god's existence.. ( i only entertain rational arguments)

but anyway, this argument is indeed flawed!

it is flawed because basically, the natural laws that we have within our universe are laws of a fixed logic (by fixed logic, i mean that as humans our worldview is always based upon assigning values to things)

that fixed logic being one that was "created" or "deduced from nature" by sentient beings.. those sentient beings of course being us.
Triangles and all of the principles of "triangular-ness" only exist because we are here to think them up and assign a value to them. (this goes for most of logic in addition). Our rules of logic (which of course is always tied into mathematics on a fundamental level) only exists because we exist.

mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.

You are right on that concept of mathematics that not everyone can grasp.

Even then, there are many properties of the universe that havent even been discovered yet...furthermore dont have any fixed values. Perhaps some unknown properties could prove god's existance

there is always hope when it comes to the "unknown"..but we dont know the unknown. so we waste our time considering the unknown... we can only deal with what we have.... the "known"

lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?

why the hell you need heaven? think 'bout reincarnation.

It wasnt god who said what one degree in a triangle is! we live by some rules which make sure that other rules apply!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by My First Timbs

mathematics is a human construct, therefore, to use his example, a right angle is DEFINED as 90 degrees. Mathematics is a language with which we can describe the Universe we live in. The triangle describes a set of similar objects, which we define to obey a certain set of rules. Thus, a right-angled triangle is defined to be an object which has three sides, obeys Pythagoras's Theorem and whose angles add up to 180 degrees. Thus, the argument fails.

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Einstein said that his triangle had three 90 degree spots!!! BANGA

i have heard better arguiments than that, but it is good one.

PEACE

Interesting thread, the question could be probed deeper, to include other interesting phenomena found in Math Theory (maybe circular trig and sound or light waves?). Some questions came up when I was thinking about this.

It is unclear to me what exactly you meant when writing about "fixed logic". Are you arguing that principles exist only because we exist? That our understanding is limited? Are principles "created" or "deduced"?

If a tool is used to reveal inherent properties, being the existence of relationships, do those relationships exist if never measured? Can you be mathematically accurate and not logical?

I agree that mathematics are a tool, of course, and it is intriguing that it happens to be the only language shared by all humans, used everywhere in practically every science, developed in seperate cultures, and even used by SETI (binary and prime).

thats the stupidest fucking thing ive ever heard in my life, so much for college

why do you think that this is a good argument timbs ?

a triangle is only 3 lines


how a huge sphere of fire up in space burns for so long would be a better one

and how snow flakes are in the shape of sun rays

i believe the reason we don't have answers to these questions is because a long time ago they used to feed us paint chips in the form of school lunch

scientist r scared of da truth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wooly Noggins

why do you think that this is a good argument timbs ?

a triangle is only 3 lines


how a huge sphere of fire up in space burns for so long would be a better one

and how snow flakes are in the shape of sun rays

i believe the reason we don't have answers to these questions is because a long time ago they used to feed us paint chips in the form of school lunch

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i thought it was a good argument because it atleast tried to be rational and present an argument based on logic

the snowflake argument is irrational because it assumes that complex things cant arise in nature without intelligent help, but yet its already been put to rest that order can come from disorder in nature without help.

where did this concept of a great mind creating everything that exist come from ?

i dont believe in that of course.. but the concept stems from the basic premise that complexity cant exist in nature without a designer

it started formally aboutt 500 years ago with william paley

Quote:

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Originally Posted by My First Timbs

it started formally aboutt 500 years ago with william paley

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i never heard of him
thats deep though

500 years ago?

a creator of everything that ever existed that lives forever and ever and you only get to experience the abode of this creator when you die
but believers fight to save their lives and the lives of their loved ones
how much do they really believe when faced with death

haha I feel so stupid.. wtf did I write down

yea wiliam paley is the theologian that came up with the "watchmaker" argument..

an irrational argument that everything complex in nature shows proof of an intelligent designer.

this argument has been debunked a thousand times, but xtians primarily still cling to it as if it was never debunked

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Potential

scientist r scared of da truth

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no, christians are scared of the truth

when u die NOTHING happens

kinda like its god that proves geometry

i'll take mentally frustrating philosophical questions for 800 alex

think about it

all life we are talking about all life right
not just man, but all life right
would not the planets be considered alive ?
all molecules and atoms or whatever
were not those things always around ?

if this God created all life and life really doesn't die it just becomes another form of life or it lives a spirit life after its dead would not this creator have his hands full ?

and don't tell me that the creator doesn't have hands
does not the bible say that Godinscribed the tablets with his onw finger ?

if this God/creator of everything exist, he wants us to be responsible for our own actions and to stop blaming everything on him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronin

lol thats not really an arguement, force is not here for the purpose of man, the comet his earth because earth was in its way, it brought life to the planet

i personally dont beleive in god, id really like to but i beleive god is man made because we cant accept death

we are over evolved and thinkt oo bighly of ourselves, after all...is there a heaven for cats and dogs?

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fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oo2

fuck yea. god is 100% man made. it all started when cavemen who couldn't understand thunder and lightning and shit like that thought there must be someone up there.

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cavemen ?
6000 years ago ?

read da bible da prophecy is being fullfilled in deez worldly events right now, were livin' in da last days

ppl have been sayin that for hundreds of years. pure bullshit. listen to Ras Kass - Nature of the Threat. yall might learn some shit. http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/ras_k...threat.rsk.txt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Potential

read da bible da prophecy is being fullfilled in deez worldly events right now, were livin' in da last days

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every time period can be seen as the "last days"

its totally subjective but yet the last day has yet to materialize!

ppl have been saying this fpr hundreds of years

Peace to the initiator of this thread, as this is indeed a most fascinating subject.

To put it plainly, mathematics--geometry, especially--is the only truly universal language-science. Numbers cannot and will not lie, and so anything (whether a temple, planet, or even a galaxy) built on a truly sound, mathematical foundation has an unbreakable foundation.

Moreover, anything found in nature can be qualified and quantified in mathematical terms. By familiarizing one's self with Sacred Geometry, one will realize that a certain underlying system of proportions governs absolutely everything in existence, thusly revealing that even in nature--which is truly chaotic at best--everything is manifest in a precise and ordered manner. This inherently proves the existence of a Supreme Being, commonly referred to most as God.

The signs of God's benevolent existence are absolutely ubiquitous, for those wise enough to reflect. How many signs will you deny?

Moreover, how many pagan heathens will ignorantly and irrationally attempt to hinder the wisdom in this reply from illuminating perusing minds?

P.S.-
Peace to the Wu for bringing the site back online.

I heard that between large distances in outer space the pythagorian therom dosnt always hold true, like between stars light years apart

pythagorean theorum always holds tru even in interstellar distances.. at the end of the day its all a man made logic system where we place values on distances.. doesnt really mean anything objectively.

Everybodies forgetting that, a sum of a triangle adding up to 180 degrees is only euclidean geometry, wich scientists are finding out can't be applied to everything like they though it could.

What about Lobachevsky, or Reumanian?

that was stupid, WE prove god excists, WE ARE THE PROOF....

I'm 26 years old and taking Elementary Algebra in community college, it's like highschool level shit and I don't get it. But I think that pi, and all universal mathematics and shapes of science, like circles and triangles, are building blocks for life. Nothing exists without circles and triangles. Electrons orbit the nucleus inside atoms just as the Earth orbits the Sun. I don't think god fits into any reasonable scientific equation. Does that make sense? I didn't ever pay attention in school, so I don't know much, but I do know a lot of religious stuff sounds like jibberish, you know, people not believing dinosaurs were real and shit.

tajeco good point, i urge to to get a true understanding of algebra and all math... it is greatly beneficial

circles, triangles and any mathematical shape does exist but only only because we exist to think them up and assign values to them..

the concept of a circle or trianle is a man made concept.. without our logic these shapes wouldnt have any meaning or value.

of course that doesnt mean that circles and triangles dont occur naturally in nature, but the value and emphasis we place on it is a manmade phenomenon.

they are not in any way evidence of unity in the universe or creation by a god

You see the problem is we got dudes today who come on here an post they feelins bout God, God is man made blah blah shit stain drawers..... Then you got the young kids who think they life is bad an insist there is no God, they will follow this person's veiws because they feel "if there was a God I wouldn't be sufferin. "For anythin to exist so must its opposite how could there be death if somethin never knew life" there is false prophets who spread this shit round an it was written in the bible this would happen an it is happenin more then it ever has. Some of you might laugh at what I say an present your evidence an say "Good luck spendin ya life worshippin somethin that does not exist. But my answer to that is I can't prove God parted the sea for Moses or I can't prove there is somethin better for all of us believers. I done need to prove anythin cuz when I observe a beautiful sun as its setting no matter how bad my day went I realize God has blessed me wif a present, I done need proof, I have faith and even more then faith I feel God's presence and its somethin beautiful main. Prayin has helped me through some difficult shit.

Much love to you all 1.

a beautiful sunset is a SUBJECTIVE experience and not objective in anyway.

one could look at a sunset and see beauty while another can feel pain from being exposed to slight uv radiation.

a positive subjective experience is worthless. the concept of a "god" is a subjective experience