Little rant about loose Wu affiliates

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12-13-2006, 01:26 AM
mowbs

Little rant about loose Wu affiliates

So I picked up More Fish today. Ghost is one of my favorite MCs and I loved Fishscale, so I was looking forward to it. I've listened to it from start to finish 3 times. It's good, but there is an element of the album that is seriously frustrating - the unnecessarily frequent appearance of Ghost's contingent of stunningly average rappers.

There are a number of reasons why this is both disappointing and puzzling. For starters, the album is advertised as a Ghostface solo, which it clearly isn't. There are even three tracks where Ghost does not appear at all, and another where he only contributes on the chorus. The concept of Ghost releasing two albums in a year is something I never really understood in the first place, but I almost feel as if he used the opportunity to expose The Theodore Unit. I know this isn't going to be the most popular opinion, and I don't want to sound like a hater, but I firmly believe this: Trife, Sun God and Shawn Wigs are mediocre rappers (at their very best) with annoyingly generic lyrics and uninspired deliveries. The unfortunate thing about the fact that at least one of these three individuals appear on 9 of More Fish's 17 tracks, is that it really disrupts the flow of what could have easily been a 4.5 or 5 star record. For his second album in a year, this is an impressive entry for Ghost, but at the same time, it just feels like it could have been so much better had he taken the time to make a true solo album (a la Fishscale).

Something else that makes no sense to me is why certain Wu artists feel inclined to branch out and bring these talent-devoid nobodies on their albums. Last I checked, there is a 9-man crew out there who they should be recruting to help them out for their projects, not American Cream Team, Hillside Scrambles or Theodore Unit. I feel the same way about these groups as I did about 2Pac's Thug Life/Outlaw boys - they only make the song worse. Hearing one of those guys enter a classic track like Pain literally takes away from the strength of the song. I'd rather hear Ghost on both verses of Biscuits, thank you. If it is absolutely necessary to feature another artist on one of your songs, do yourself a favor and take your pick from the generals, or at the very least, a legitimate Wu affiliate who has an established underground credibility (in the vein of Killah Priest).

I'm sorry, folks. I just don't get it, and I don't see the merit in Theodore Unit. I find it difficult to comprehend why Ghost would prefer to have them on his album. It would be different if they actually brought something to the table, but they don't, and they only hinder the overall quality of the record. Hearing some subpar MC follow a unique character like Ghostface over a great beat makes me cringe.
12-13-2006, 01:33 AM
the silencer

great point...ive been annoyed by the same thing for a while now too

i think the most obvious answer is that they just wanna help there peeps out n maybe get them some bread or whatever but....as a fan, i cant stand it..

Rae had the Cream Team, Ghost has the Theodore Unit, U-God the Hillside idiots, Deck was promotin House Gang for a lil bit i dono if he still is....

i dont like that...im a WU TANG fan, not a fuckin Theodore Unit fan...i like Ghostface but i dont want to be forced to hear these other idiots too..

and u make a good point that they shood use Wu fam more...i love Priest, any Killarmy members, any1 from Sunz of Man (Prodigal Sunn is FIRE)..Holocaust is pretty tight..

fuck man, Ghost wooda done well to have my man Bronze Nazareth jump on a song or ESPECIALLY produce a track on here...

i think its just the direction Wu has been headed in for the last few years...as soon as the albums started havin less and less of Rza, 4th, Mathematics, etc on production then things just got worse....now i gotta hear fuckin Shawn Wigz when i buy the Ghostface album..
12-13-2006, 01:47 AM
ZiG 9th

I haven't heard the album yet, but i feel u 100%!!! I been feelin that way for yearz! I dunno why these dudes waste their time with these weak ass rappers! I felt the same way when i heard Cream team on Rae's 2nd album! I feel like those weak ass Division dudes ruined RZA's birth of a prince album! Now inspectah deck got his weak ass crew going! RZA iz the only one who can truely spot talent! i.e. Killarmy. Gravediggaz, Sunz of man! He mad a bad choice with Division tho! Thatz why these latter solo albumz suffer now! Right now the way i see it Ghost nor wu isn't even in the position to really put any new people on. B/c they're barely staying afloat themselves nowadayz. So how can they even afford to put some1 else on when they're still tryin to keep their name alive?
12-13-2006, 01:48 AM
J-DON

I agree that a Ghostface Album should be a Ghostface album but I like Trife and Sun God on this album. There arent many NEW rappers that sound much better than either of these dudes and I give credit where credit is due.
12-13-2006, 01:52 AM
madstyles

I can see what you mean about ghos being absent for a good part of the album and many of the dudes wu has tried to bring up have been average mc's but not all. ghost hasn't exactly been on top of his game lately. Hes been sounding the same for the most part ever since pretty toney. Thats why I feel he should chill with all these album...way to much material.

I'm not trying to hate on ghostface. Hes one of my fav mc's but to be honest is he really spittin as good as he can/use too? Theres at least two songs I can name that someone from his crew has outshined him on.
I think trife has talent and is a good story teller something missing in a lot of hip hop artist these days. I'm not saying hes better than ghostface but the potential for him to have a dope album is there.

peace.
12-13-2006, 01:53 AM
crass

i think when we heard about Theodore Unit coming out with an album on Def Jam, it ended up becoming More Fish. that's why "ghost" would release two albums in one year - to help fill his contract and put out the theodore unit album without having to go through the professional bureacocracy of signing Theodore Unit to the label as a single group.
12-13-2006, 01:54 AM
J-DON

^No way man. Ghostface absoultely destroys shit on this album. Id have to agree that he was not that great on Ptone but he was pretty good on fishscale and definately ripped shit on More Fish.
12-13-2006, 01:54 AM
ZiG 9th

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-DON

I agree that a Ghostface Album should be a Ghostface album but I like Trife and Sun God on this album. There arent many NEW rappers that sound much better than either of these dudes and I give credit where credit is due.

Yea but....Krumbsnatcha, Freddie Fox, Group Home and Big Shug are ill tho! Theo unit an american cream team are garbage!
12-13-2006, 01:59 AM
J-DON

^ Big Shug and Group Home are DECENT.

Foxx and Krumbsnatcha have skills but they are Generic sounding style wise.

I agree that Theo unit as a whole is trash and I dont even care for most Killa Bees in general save a few.
12-13-2006, 02:02 AM
mowbs

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-DON

I dunno man Trife is tight enough to have on an album. This isnt a new thing look at the Gangstarr foundation... same shit.

Hey, there is nothing wrong with supporting what your friends do, but if you are going to attach your name to a product, make sure you're promoting something of value. If all of the Theodore rappers were good, then I wouldn't mind them making appearances on the albums. But More Fish is just abusing their privileges as Ghost affiliates, and showcasing them in over-abundance. If Ghost thinks these guys are great, then he should feature them on one track on his album so that their name is out there, and see if he can help them get their own release out there.

I assume you're referring to Jeru and the likes with Gang Starr. The difference here is that Jeru is a real talent. My issue here isn't so much that the artists they are featuring aren't Wu, but the fact that they aren't worthy of having their own verse on a Wu-Tang album.

To be honest, I actually like Lethaface more than anyone from the aforementioned groups in this thread. Great voice, great style, and he shares an interesting dynamic with U-God. But other than that, ACT, HS and TU are nothing special.
12-13-2006, 02:14 AM
mowbs

Quote:

Originally Posted by crass xxx

i think when we heard about Theodore Unit coming out with an album on Def Jam, it ended up becoming More Fish. that's why "ghost" would release two albums in one year - to help fill his contract and put out the theodore unit album without having to go through the professional bureacocracy of signing Theodore Unit to the label as a single group.

That's a pretty good point, and you could definitely be right. Let's also not overlook the fact that on the cover, it does say 'The Theodore Unit' right aabove the album title.

It kills me that this album had so much potential.
12-13-2006, 02:21 AM
madstyles

The pretty toney album is underrated. I don't know why a lot of dude swear its ghosts' worse album. P tone and fishscale are arguably the same as far as quality...I could see why someone would like pretty toney over fishscale. In fact I remember listening to p tone the other day and ghostface just seemed more on point with the flow, delivery, and rhymes. Fishscale I guess had better beats and more memorable songs(kilo, ragu, beauty jackson, whip you with a strap, and underwater).
12-13-2006, 03:30 AM
P-Noid Brown

I Agree Too... But I Like Trife And Sun God...
But As Far As The Guest Appearances .. Yea The Generals Should Have Been Present...that's What Made Fishscale Soo Good...the Generals Back In Action... It's The Money That Screws Everything Up..that's Why Cuban Links 2 May Suffer Because They Wont Share The Spot Lite Ever Again...even A Whole Wu Album At This Point Wouldn't Be Intriguing.....they Need To Redevelop That Chemistry They Had From The 93-97 Era... That's The Only Way To Recapture The Essence Of The True Wu-tang Aura... Who Cares Who Does What Nigga Get To The Studio And Spit On My Track.... Thas How It Was Back In The Day.... That How It Should Be Now....
12-13-2006, 04:45 AM
toetoe

As much as i agree on your message, i think your wrong in Trifes place. Hes the best new Wu affiliate for the last 8 years. He killed EVERY verse on More Fish. (Shawn Wiggs is another case though)
12-13-2006, 11:31 AM
crass

trife is good but the shit he raps about gets boring quick. also he sounds too much like Big L sometimes.
12-13-2006, 11:38 AM
11th Chamber

^^^ I like Trife Diesel, dudes tight.

Altho, Shaun Wigs can disappear off the face of the earth for all I care
12-13-2006, 12:34 PM
dhat

Yeap. I fucking hate hearing average rappers on a Ghostface record. Starks himself is one of the greatest ever so what the fuck are these people doing on his albums? I love Trife to death, Sun God seems ok for such a young dude and if he's going to take after his father, it looks promising. Cappa was amazing, but now he hasn't been hitting my nerve the right way.. But rest of these theodore guys are pretty much waste of beat.

I just can't stop thinking what would for example Deck sound like on that beat instead of wiggs? A lot better, anyday.

If one is the founding member of the greatest hip hop group EVER, why waste time on a group of average rappers? It's cool to bring up people like Trife diesel, of course. Do that, but leave the rest out, atleast in big projects like this. Help one name to grow big, who has the potential to really do some good.

Damn.
12-13-2006, 12:41 PM
tragedykhadafi12

I liked the album, i only listened to it one time through so i know ill like it when i listen to it more. I do agree that he was and probably def jam was trying to expose tu because i think they are signed now. But, it could have done without the wiggz songs that didnt even have ghost because in my opinion wiggz isnt really good. He is ok but why not put a trife solo or a kryme life solo or even a cap solo but this dude doesnt excite me. I do love the album though, its a solit 3.5 or 4
12-13-2006, 12:46 PM
Below Zero

"More Fish" = "718 part 2".
This is not a Ghostface album!
I hope Ghost/Doom is better than this..........
12-13-2006, 01:01 PM
ZiG 9th

Quote:

Originally Posted by madstyles

I can see what you mean about ghos being absent for a good part of the album and many of the dudes wu has tried to bring up have been average mc's but not all. ghost hasn't exactly been on top of his game lately. Hes been sounding the same for the most part ever since pretty toney. Thats why I feel he should chill with all these album...way to much material.

I'm not trying to hate on ghostface. Hes one of my fav mc's but to be honest is he really spittin as good as he can/use too? Theres at least two songs I can name that someone from his crew has outshined him on.
I think trife has talent and is a good story teller something missing in a lot of hip hop artist these days. I'm not saying hes better than ghostface but the potential for him to have a dope album is there.

peace.

True story! I feel the same way! Lyrically Ghost been fell off. He can't spit it like the Ghost from Cuban Linx, Wu-4ever, Ironman, Liquid Swordz ect....Itz like Ghost iz tryin to sound like a D-block rapper now? Or just some hood nigga rhymin or the dude on the block spittin. Ghost used to be krazy ill! Ghost still had it on The W......Then when Iron Flag came out i think thatz when he lost it an changed for the worse.
12-13-2006, 06:26 PM
GRANDMASSIVE.

Either Way I Think The Album Will Do Good Because Of The Fact Its Getting Released During The Xmas Season, New Cd's Are Always The Best Gift To Give As A Present Whether They Are Good Or Not. Personally I Wouldve Jus Put Trife On The Album & Thats It.
12-13-2006, 06:47 PM
Warcloud Ish

i firmly agree with the thread starter...i hate all these shitty wu-fam groups nowadays...theordore (sun god, solomon are alright and obviously cappa), hillside shit suck, ice water are wack, ccf/division i cant stand (shacronz only one that got skill), black knights are average at best, north star are o.k....the only wu-fam that should be on any albums are killarmy, sunz of man, la the darkman, br'kln zu, shyheim, streetlife, holocaust, timbo king and maybe a few others
12-13-2006, 11:00 PM
ThereisnoG.O.A.Tok

I agree with most of it especially the older wu affiliates. I enjoy trife because he's fresh he can ride the beats I have heard and he has an amazing flow. I see what you are saying but trife in my opinion the best thing I have heard outside of wu tang 9 in a long long time. I understand where you are coming from.
12-13-2006, 11:38 PM
bourbaki

I haven't made it to the record store yet so I can't talk specifically about more fish, but a couple comments:

1) Theordore Unit is pretty bad, but not offensively bad. It's not like Nas letting Bravehearts onto some of his albums. Trife really is OK (ghost sounded downright lazy compared to trife on put it on the line), and some people like Sun God.

2) Spotting talent is hard - just because somebody rips a good freestyle at the club or drops a decent mixtape doesn't mean they're capable of a professional level album. I'm glad that ghost, u-god, INS, etc. use their fame to try to get some unknown cats out there. Sometimes it works, e.g. Killarmy, Sunz of Man, and sometimes it doesn't, e.g. Black Knights, Housegang. But I'd rather put up with the bad than not get the good - just think how long Akir was out there before Immortal Technique signed him.

That being said I'll have to hear the album before my final judgement.
12-14-2006, 10:00 AM
Jamal Arief

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowbs

So I picked up More Fish today. Ghost is one of my favorite MCs and I loved Fishscale, so I was looking forward to it. I've listened to it from start to finish 3 times. It's good, but there is an element of the album that is seriously frustrating - the unnecessarily frequent appearance of Ghost's contingent of stunningly average rappers.

There are a number of reasons why this is both disappointing and puzzling. For starters, the album is advertised as a Ghostface solo, which it clearly isn't. There are even three tracks where Ghost does not appear at all, and another where he only contributes on the chorus. The concept of Ghost releasing two albums in a year is something I never really understood in the first place, but I almost feel as if he used the opportunity to expose The Theodore Unit. I know this isn't going to be the most popular opinion, and I don't want to sound like a hater, but I firmly believe this: Trife, Sun God and Shawn Wigs are mediocre rappers (at their very best) with annoyingly generic lyrics and uninspired deliveries. The unfortunate thing about the fact that at least one of these three individuals appear on 9 of More Fish's 17 tracks, is that it really disrupts the flow of what could have easily been a 4.5 or 5 star record. For his second album in a year, this is an impressive entry for Ghost, but at the same time, it just feels like it could have been so much better had he taken the time to make a true solo album (a la Fishscale).

Something else that makes no sense to me is why certain Wu artists feel inclined to branch out and bring these talent-devoid nobodies on their albums. Last I checked, there is a 9-man crew out there who they should be recruting to help them out for their projects, not American Cream Team, Hillside Scrambles or Theodore Unit. I feel the same way about these groups as I did about 2Pac's Thug Life/Outlaw boys - they only make the song worse. Hearing one of those guys enter a classic track like Pain literally takes away from the strength of the song. I'd rather hear Ghost on both verses of Biscuits, thank you. If it is absolutely necessary to feature another artist on one of your songs, do yourself a favor and take your pick from the generals, or at the very least, a legitimate Wu affiliate who has an established underground credibility (in the vein of Killah Priest).

I'm sorry, folks. I just don't get it, and I don't see the merit in Theodore Unit. I find it difficult to comprehend why Ghost would prefer to have them on his album. It would be different if they actually brought something to the table, but they don't, and they only hinder the overall quality of the record. Hearing some subpar MC follow a unique character like Ghostface over a great beat makes me cringe.

Why didn't you just say you don't like Trife, Sun God and Wigs? Would have been easier... Now you sound pretentious and silly. I mean it's ok if you don't appreciate their MC skills, but who are you to doubt their credibiltiy or legitimacy? And please stop trying to give Ghost any advice, cause that is really pathetic. If you like him so much, you should trust his decisions. Surely he is a much better "talent scout" than you are, thank you.
But to stay on the side of positivity: I suggest you go and mix your own Ghost album. Delete the three tracks, cut out Wigs and Trife from the others and include the leftovers from Fishscale and More Fish.

Whoever ain't heard the album yet, don't get it twisted!
It's not a Theodore Unit mixtape. There's twice as many Ghost darts and half as many TU darts, which makes it 4x more Ghost verses per TU verse. Even if you delete all the tracks without Ghost, plus the back like that "bonus" track the album is still about 45 minutes. "More Fish" is a very good album and it has more lines from the main artist than GZA's "Beneath the Surface", MK's "Made in Brooklyn", Deck's "Resident Patient" and about as many as "Ironman" and "Bulletproof Wallets", all of which have a lot of features. If you like any of those albums, I think you should at least give it a chance.

Peace.
12-14-2006, 12:59 PM
Ya_Bane

It was promoted as a Ghostface-album indeed, and has his name on it. Tho the 'More Fish' symbol, that's on the albumcover and everywhere else that talks about the album, says

"The Theodore Unit
MORE FISH"

and a small 'gfk' in the middle.

So it's nothing strange really that they are on it.

BUT ZiG 9th are on point here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZiG 9th

Right now the way i see it Ghost nor wu isn't even in the position to really put any new people on. B/c they're barely staying afloat themselves nowadayz. So how can they even afford to put some1 else on when they're still tryin to keep their name alive?

This is true. It's not the best time to push out Theo.

He would have had the Clan all over the album if he could and wanted. This time it was that he wanted to let Theo shine, that's what he wanted so that's what he did, wich I have to respect. But it's a bad move in all other ways. For bussiness/sales, for the fans, and for the name of Wu-Tang.

With all of this said, I do like More Fish better than Fishscale.
12-14-2006, 01:12 PM
rubyspirit

The guys are good. They'll grow on you.
12-14-2006, 04:16 PM
crass

i didn't buy more fish, cuz i don't have any money cuz i bought paris hilton's Cd recently.
12-14-2006, 04:28 PM
snapple

i havent heard more fish...but i love ghost collabs with trife and superb....i dont know who sungod is was he on any other ghost LPs?
12-14-2006, 04:57 PM
Jamal Arief

Quote:

Originally Posted by snapple

i havent heard more fish...but i love ghost collabs with trife and superb....i dont know who sungod is was he on any other ghost LPs?

He's Ghost's son. He was on Fishscale as well, on the track "Dogs of War". On the new joint he's on two tracks, one with Ghost and the other with Trife. And he doesn't sound bad at all to my ears.

Peace.
12-14-2006, 05:07 PM
LORD ZERO

the album shoulda had theodore AND the some of the generals up there, its basically another theodore album lol
12-14-2006, 05:29 PM
WuBanga36

Cappa.
12-14-2006, 05:46 PM
Jet Set

Turth man, kudos for writing this. And im feeling ya. Trife though can come good on some occasions. As far as the rest goes, I'm a Wu-Tang fan, as in Wu-Tang Clan first. Not the average rest.