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Thread: Puff Daddy snatching Havoc's beat w/o credit for his '97 debut...

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    Killer Bob claaa7's Avatar
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    Default Puff Daddy snatching Havoc's beat w/o credit for his '97 debut...


    I might very well have posted this here before, i posted it on my blog a couple of years ago but i know there are a lot of new posters here that might find this very interesting.

    there's several casses of Puff Daddy taking credit where it's not due (DJ Enuff producing "You're Nobody" for BIG, when the album dropped it was Produced by Puff Daddy, co-produced by DJ Enuff; Buckwild's "I Got A Story to Tell" got a co-production credit for Puff Daddy despite him wanting to scrap the track when they couldnt clear the sample; BIG's "Juicy" by Pete Rock, etc.) but this is one of the worst for sure.


    i was reading Prodigy's "My Infamous Life", where he tells that he was invited to spit with Havoc on "Last Dayz" with BIG but backed out but the interesting part is this - and i quote: "After a long studio session, Hav was so drunk that he left his beat disc in the machine - leaving behind all six songs he had crafted that day instead of one. Somebody ended up using one of the beats for Black Rob's "I Love You Baby" on the Puff Daddy & The Family album. I could tell as soon as I heard it because it had Havoc's signature drums, bass line, and all. "Hav, that's your beat!" I said when we heard the track. "That motherfucker stole your beat!"

    In the booklet the song is credited to Ron "AMEN-RA" Lawrence with co-production by Jay "Waxxx" Garfield (a producer i really like btw) and has additional Baby Grand piano played by Stevie J. This track definitely has Havoc written all over it, from the classical sinister strings, to the hardboiled bass line and rhythm track. The accoustic piano parts were probably added on by Stevie J as the credits say and i would guess that J Waxx, unknowing it was a beat snatch, cleaned it up a bit or whatever, but this is most def a Havoc beat. Luckily Black Rob spits two dope verses on it, while Pappa Diddy Pop only has one at the end. Makes you wonder if this was standard practices at the Bad Boy offices and studios?



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    nada ignorante
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    If true then thats really fucked up. I can expect something like that coming from Puff though.
    N.I.


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    Interesting, because this is the SECOND track off of the same Puff Daddy album album that Jay Garfield has been accused of ripping off. The first being "Victory," which lifted the concept off of a G-Clef da Mad Komposa demo, entitled "Victory."

    In late 1996, clef recorded a solo demo based on the intro to Eric B & Rakim's "Put Your Hands Together." This demo was for a solo joint called "Fear in Ya Ear," which ended up going unreleased until many years later.

    In the meantime, Clef retooled the melody into a smoother synth sound, sampling, from the score of the Rocky film, specifically, "Going the Distance," for a remix project he and DJ Spinbad were working on. This version of the instrumental was used for the remix of Gravediggaz "The Night the Earth Cried." He dubbed it his "Victory" remix as a reference to his solo demo.

    In 1997, Puff Daddy's No Way Out album was released, which included "Victory" with Biggie and Busta. Produced by Jay Garfield, the song sampled from the Rocky score, specifically "Going the Distance." It basically just lifted the entire track as the foundation of the song.

    So where does the connection come from? Maybe it was just a coincidence...everybody loves Rocky, right?

    1. Jay and Geoffrey Garfield were partners with GZA in GZA Entertainment, which had signed G-Clef's group, Soul Kid Klik, to a management deal in 1995. The working relationship with the Garfield Brothers lasted through 1998.
    2. At the time, it was virtually unheard of for rap producer's to sample Bill Conti's music. There was only one known at the time: Diamond sampled a small piece of "Gonna Fly Now" for Brand Nubian's "Punks Jump Up to Get Beat Down." And the truth is that very few people knew about this sample, so as far as most people were concerned, nobody in hip-hop was sampling Rocky.

      As a result, Clef was really proud of the "original" use of the sample and played it for several key people. Among those who'd heard Clef's song were the Garfield Brothers.
    3. Jay Garfield had just begun producing and was looking to make his mark on the scene.
    4. The title of the song. You see, it would make sense that Jay Garfield brought this "Victory" concept to Bad Boy, assuming it was a reference to Rocky's ultimate victory. But the thing is, Clef wasn't calling it Victory in reference to Rocky! He called it Victory as a reference to his original solo demo, that referenced his victorious emergence from the rubble of Soul Kid Klik's breakup. The word "Victory" and certain musical elements of the demo were in very specific reference to their song, Mortal Kombat (1995).

    So the fact that Jay's first "production" happened to sample from a source that NOBODY was using, and happened to be from the very same song that one of Jay's own artists had used and played for him...well, ok it could be coincidence. But the killer breadcrumb in the trail is the title attached to the composition..."Victory."

    As an aside, it was later discovered that a group called Tuff Crew sampled "Going the Distance" in the late 80's. They did an incredible job with the song! This and all other songs referenced above can be found below:

    Eric B and Rakim:

    Clef Fear in Ya Ear:

    Bill Conti Going the Distance:

    Gravediggaz The Night the Earth Cried Clef Remix:

    Puff Daddy Victory:

    Tuff Crew Going the Distance:



    Eric B and Rakim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpzgi7U970g
    Clef Fear in Ya Ear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GimqB63_n90]
    Bill Conti Going the Distance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDsrpromx30&index=3&list=PLNwVhFRTji9CueUWhvISh5ivU7535xiT2
    Gravediggaz The Night the Earth Cried Clef Remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTU3hfLl_M
    Puff Daddy Victory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJAgGB7jKZU
    Tuff Crew Going the Distance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKkM5ivyyM#t=31
    Last edited by logitrax; 06-08-2014 at 11:21 AM.

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    Attack Ships On Fire Sun Tanama's Avatar
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    G-Clef deserves to get ripped off just for having a face like a cartoon disney villain, or possibly a hemmorhoid.

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    ^^^Point is, essentially the guy makes his debut as a producer with two tracks on a Puff album, and now both have been called into question.

    Worth noting...when Clef later included the instrumental on his Drama Breaks record, he called it "My Victory, Not Yours," which was a nod to the jack.

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    Killer Bob claaa7's Avatar
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    logitraxx - that's very interesting, i had no clue about anything of that..

    as for Puff i don't doubt that he's talented at what he does, at least these days bc he learned from watching the best, but as Sean C & LV tells it in this interview i read - he is in no way a "hands-on" producer, but he's still vital to crafting a track.

    however when coming up, remember the XXL "Making Of Ready to Die" article, Bluez Brothaz (Lord Digga and them of Slaughtahouse INC.) was telling how Puffy was all up in the sessions and really bugging the shit out of them when they were producing LOL... if i remember right they said he hadn't a clue on what he was doing.

    in the "Life After Death" article, Buckwild says that Puffy was basically obsessed with getting a co-production credit, despite doing nothing and even wanting to scrap the song when they couldn't clear the sample. he brought in Chucky Thompson who managed to replay that paricular sample, but bringing in this guy is overseeing the project as an A&R or Executive Producer - not a co-producer of a particular song. READ THE QUOTES AND LISTEN TO BUCKWILD'S ORIGINAL VERSION IN THE BEST QUALITY I EVER FOUND HERE


    then it's the famous case of DJ Enuff and Jiv Poss crafting the instrumental for BIG's "You're Nobody (Til' Somebody Kills You)", taking it to Bad Boy, then the album drops and the song is the album closer, sounding more polished with some minor changes.. check the credits for that one "PRODUCED BY PUFF DADDY & STEVIE J" and in small letters "Co-produced by DJ Enuff & Jiv Poss", lol, now that's just wrong.

    and let's not forget Pete Rock's "Juicy" story...



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    Attack Ships On Fire Sun Tanama's Avatar
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    How much credit can you give PR? Its a barely touched sample of Mtume.

    I think that Q-Tip did the same thing with one of PRs other beats, used the same sample.

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    Killer Bob claaa7's Avatar
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    ^ still a lot of hip-hop tracks are like that, and BIG and Puff was down in Pete's cellar, hearing the beat he was working on and seeing "Juicy Fruit" on the turntable, so Puff hooked it up himself instead of doing the right thing and calling up Pete Rock asking him to come down and produce Biggie's song.... at least he was big enough to give him the remix (which imo is much better).


    yeah ATCQ "Jazz (We've Got)" was a similiar story as Pete tells it, Q-Tip came down to his cellar, heard a beat he was working on and Pete got a phone call which he went to answer and again 'Tip saw the sampled record on the turntable... when Pete got back, Tip was asking about the beat - if iit was something he was making for CL, Pete saying it was just something for practice. then according to Pete Rock the next thing he hears about it is on "Low End Theory" where Q-Tip had snatched that beat and even shout out "PETE ROCK FOR THE BEAT, YOU DON'T STOP".. according the beat 'Tip had hooked up the beat EXACTLY the same way that he had. the right thing would have been to ask Pete for the beat and come down to the studio and everything.

    another interesting thing about the ATCQ album is that in a Large Professor interview (it was some on some radio show) he said that Tribe's engineer did all of the actual hands-on production on Tribe's two first albums (beside the Skeff Anselm joints). according to LP, Tip and Ali really started learning the machines and producing a little before "Midnight Mauraders"... don't know if it's true but it's Extra-P's words



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    Attack Ships On Fire Sun Tanama's Avatar
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    Tip was shouting out Bob Power on tracks so he probably was a bigger part of the production than just mixing. How many engineers get shouted out on rap songs? I guess Young Guru, i can't think of many.

    I'm looking at Powers credits it looks like he was a capable producer, even had a writing credit for Ms Badus 'On & On'.

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    meet me in the lobby TommySuits's Avatar
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    anybody have the mp3 to that Night The Earth Cried remix?

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    DELUXE LUXURY mAlAkAz's Avatar
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    theres a skit on the book of shabazz CD where Shabazz the Disciple claims j Waxxx garfield stole the beat he used for black rob & puff daddy's - "i love you baby" from "I'm Breathing For You" (original version) produced by Carlos Bess
    Last edited by mAlAkAz; 06-09-2014 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mAlAkAz View Post
    theres a skit on the book of shabazz CD where Shabazz the Disciple claims j Waxxx garfield stole the beat he used for black rob & puff daddy's - "i love you baby" from "I'm Breathing For You" (original version) produced by Carlos Bess
    Breathin For You was actually produced by Supreme, but this makes things a bit more interesting because now we have Havoc saying it's his beat, while Supreme and Shabazz had in fact recorded a few mixes of the song together already. Plus, the Garfields were managing Shabazz at the time, just like Clef.

    In either case, the common denominators seem to be J Garfield and the artists he had a hand in managing!

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    DELUXE LUXURY mAlAkAz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logitrax View Post
    Breathin For You was actually produced by Supreme
    I thought Supreme only made the Breathing For You (remix) which was the actual first version of the song they released as a single to the public

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    Quote Originally Posted by mAlAkAz View Post
    I thought Supreme only made the Breathing For You (remix) which was the actual first version of the song they released as a single to the public
    Yes, I just listened to the vinyl and demo for the first time since maybe the early 2000's and you're correct that Supreme's was a remix - my mistake.

    But the larger point still remains that Bazz and Clef were Garfield's artists, and it was their music that ended up with Bad Boy on the same album!

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