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Thread: Vegans and vegetarians think they don’t kill animals but they do

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    Default Vegans and vegetarians think they don’t kill animals but they do

    I was a veggie way back when., from 2002 to 2011, i did it for personal reasons, cos i didnt wanto consume processed and fucked up meets, i was in america and eating meat constantly for well over 9months.. i gained weight and felt un healthy.
    i did it due to me, not cruelty to other animals..its a dietary choice.

    Vegans and vegetarians think they don’t kill animals but they do


    Posted By: PlayGround November 12, 2016



    Claudio Bertonatti, one of the most renowned naturalists in Argentina, wrote an article that triggered an earthquake. The tsunami reached us here and is likely to extend even further.
    In his article, The Vegan Confusion, he warns that eating vegetables doesn’t prevent the death of animals. Bertonatti has enraged thousands of vegans and vegetarians, as well as other nature conservationists. However, many who read his article learned something about animal rights that might never have occurred to them otherwise.
    We spoke to Claudio about his earth-shattering idea and discussed the most important points of the controversy.

    Claudio, you were a vegetarian. What made you decide to become one?

    As a teenager, I grew interested in nature. I thought that by becoming a vegetarian I’d avoid killing so many animals. But then I changed my mind.

    What happened?

    I began studying nature and going out to the countryside to observe wildlife. I noticed that in the fields of agricultural crops there were no birds, and the few that were there were being persecuted. Then I started studying amphibians, mammals, reptiles and fish and I realized that I’d been confused.

    How?

    As a vegetarian, I was helping to prevent the death and suffering of domestic animals, but not of wild species. And many of these species – unlike cows, pigs and goats – were disappearing. So, I went back to being an omnivore.


    What drove you to write the article?

    In Argentina, I encounter many people who claim to be defenders of nature because they don’t eat meat or wear leather. They think that by being vegan or vegetarian they’re preventing animals from dying. It’s not true.

    Why?

    From the moment that humans began to raise cattle and adopt agriculture we generated an impact. There is no animal species whose survival doesn’t result in the death of other animals, whether directly or indirectly. I understand that this can be a painful realization. I’d also like to live in an ideal world, but that’s not the reality. Many vegans and people who only wear cotton seem to believe they don’t cause any deaths, but they do.
    When I say this, many people feel like I’m cornering them

    Indirect deaths?

    Wheat, rice, corn. Most vegans eat these things. The first impact of mass cultivation is deforestation: we force nature out to make room for crops. In Argentina, they set fire to the jungle, burning nests with flamethrowers. Then they must defend the sown land from the birds who come to feed; many landowners do this by scattering poisoned grains. After that, the wild herbivores come looking for the first shoots, so the landowners put up electric fences or hunt the animals down with guns.
    If you eat meat, you kill animals, but you also kill them by eating plants

    What happens during harvest?

    The land is fumigated to combat fungi, insects and other plants. The animals that have been driven out move on to other areas which already support animals: the hotel is fully booked. So, the animals go to neighbouring crop fields and another wave of impacts is generated.
    By contrast, he says, in fields dedicated to livestock there are more species of other animals.
    There are lots of wild grasslands in Argentina. You can go for a walk there and find everything: amphibians, reptiles, birds. Of course, I’d be lying if I said there’s the same variety of animals as you’d get if the cows weren’t there. The farmer also persecutes wildlife and kills any animals he considers harmful to production. Even so, the impact is less. When I say this, a lot of people feel I’m cornering them.


    In what sense?

    In the sense that there’s no escape: if you eat meat, you kill animals, but you also kill them by eating plants. A lot of people who care about environmental issues look for good guys and bad guys, but it’s not like that: it’s far more complicated.
    Give us an example.
    There are lots of people here demonstrating and saying “No to mining”. The slogan should be “No to mining that recklessly exploits resources and people”. The activists use computers that wouldn’t exist without the metals brought up from the mines. I’m surprised they don’t see the bigger picture.
    Most slaughterhouses in Argentina are models of cruelty. I could never pretend otherwise!

    What do you think of the way in which meat is mass produced – the meat industry?

    It’s a tragedy. Feedlot and most slaughterhouses in Argentina are models of unrestrained cruelty. I could never pretend otherwise!
    There’s evidence that the resources required for meat are far greater than those required for vegetables. And, that crops make up a large part of these resources: a high percentage of them are used to feed livestock.
    That’s true. I know that most soya crops are used for this purpose. I’m not saying vegans are stupid or that they should all become carnivores, I’m just saying that it’s important to be sensible, to adopt an intelligent position and show some solidarity.
    To a fundamentalist, it’s a sin to mention death. What else should I call it? Euthanasia?

    What is an intelligent position?

    Showing solidarity with nature: the lesser evil. It’s important to encourage the responsible consumption and humane killing of animals. But to a fundamentalist, it’s a sin even to mention death. What else should I call it? Euthanasia?

    If I understand correctly, your intention is to warn vegans and vegetarians that zero impact is impossible.

    Most of us live in cities and know very little about the animal world. Ask your friends if they can name 10 animals and 10 wild plants native to the area they live in.


    We probably wouldn’t be able to.

    If we don’t know anything about nature and diversity, then we won’t be able to value it. Our universe is limited to what we see: dogs, cats, chickens, pigs, ducks, cows. Our sensitivity extends only towards them. It’s like looking through a keyhole. The world is bigger than that and far more complex, whether you accept it or not.

    You talk as if you know a lot of fanatics.

    There are fundamentalist carnivores and vegans. As a scientist, when I hear them speaking in that confident tone – so utterly lacking in self-doubt – it scares me. Fundamentalists only pay attention to people who think like they do, and see everyone else as an enemy. It’s a contradiction.
    Our universe is limited to what we see: dogs, cats, chickens, pigs, cows. Our sensitivity extends only towards them

    What?

    For a carnivore to be violent is logical, but for a vegan to be violent is philosophically inconsistent.
    Have you met violent vegans?
    I was the managing director of Buenos Aires Zoo. I resigned because I tried to transform it into a conservation centre for endangered species but couldn’t. There were these vegans who’d demonstrate in front of the zoo, shouting at the families who came in, calling them murderers. That damages veganism. People think: if this is veganism then I want no part of it. Not all vegans are like that, of course. But there are lots of people who develop a great empathy for domestic animals only. Many of them end up hating people and that’s a pathology: it’s not healthy.
    For a carnivore to be violent is logical, but for a vegan to be violent is philosophically inconsistent

    In your article, you say that if the whole human race suddenly became vegan, it would be a tragedy. But some say if we were all vegan then we’d need fewer crops than we do as omnivores.

    I wrote the article as a way of generating debate in my country, where the vegan movement’s grasp on environmental analysis is generally quite shaky. If the whole human race became vegan because of this type of thinking (not counting other philosophical, religious or health reasons that I won’t go into), it would be a tragedy because we wouldn’t be understanding the world’s environmental problems.


    You’re not convinced by the statistics.

    If a well-understood veganism contributes to improving the natural world, then I’ll gladly become a vegan. My chief concern is the conservation of biodiversity: that the wealth of life on Earth does not become impoverished.
    But, again, if everyone in Argentina were vegan, wouldn’t that require fewer crops?
    I don’t know. I don’t think you need to be vegan to conserve nature and biodiversity. I’m not a specialist in agricultural production development, but from what I know about the environment, it’s always better to diversify production. There should be crops, cows, beekeepers… diversity.
    You don’t need to be vegan to conserve nature and biodiversity

    What shortcomings do you see in the vegan movement?

    I never see them fighting for the creation of new protected areas or combatting the illegal trafficking of wildlife. I see them protesting bullfighting, which no longer goes on in Argentina, and slaughterhouses. It’s like they only care about domestic animals which, again, are not in danger of extinction. I’m not saying it’s wrong – just that there’s so much more to it.

    In general, do you think there’s not enough of a connection between veganism and environmental awareness?

    What I find dangerous is that you spend all your energy trying to save the black cat, while knowing nothing about the environment, because maybe you’re wasting your energy; maybe your energy would have a greater impact elsewhere. It’s important to have a broad vision: it could help you analyse your situation better. If, afterwards, you still want to dedicate your life to saving black cats, that’s great, I’m appreciative of it. Defending animal rights is not incompatible with nature conservation.


    Clearly, there’s a conflict between environmentalists and animal rights activists and it’s definitely going to have a big impact on the future of humanity.

    It reminds me a little of left-wing political parties: they act like they’re enemies, and yet they’re very similar and should be allies. Do you know who the biggest enemy of nature conservation is?

    Who?

    Indifferent people. A lot of indifferent people believe that everyone who cares about the environment is the same: we don’t eat meat, we’re do-gooding greenies who never have sex. It’s not true. We’re normal people!
    Environmentalists tend to think vegans and vegetarians are just sentimental. On the other hand, the indifference of some vegans to wild animals and biodiversity concerns me
    Death is a part of nature. Mixing feelings with science doesn’t seem very scientific. On the other hand, human consciousness is important, as is our responsibility for an appalling and heavy-polluting industry. Who’s wrong?
    Mistakes are made on both sides. Environmentalists tend to think vegans and vegetarians are just sentimental. On the other hand, the indifference of some vegans to wild animals and biodiversity concerns me: it’s not consistent. I acknowledge the fact that humanity is a machine that devours the world. One anthropologist said that we’re cosmophagic: we devour that which surrounds us.

    Are you happy about the stir your text has caused?

    A lot of people insult me and attack me by saying I killed a polar bear, which isn’t true. Others provide me with new perspectives for which I thank them! I’m just a journeyman of nature conservation, a gardener, and I’ve been wrong many times. I do my best, but it doesn’t offend me to find out I’m wrong. I think like a scientist, not like a fundamentalist.
    You don’t need to be vegan to conserve nature and biodiversity
    Last edited by soul controller; 11-16-2016 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #2

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    meat is not the one regardless. its dead and it's acidic. Heavy meat diets mess tings up for the body
    this is interesting though. I did have an idea about cultivation messing certain systems up.

    If I was in grandmother land I'm sure I'd be eating more eco friendly what with all the coconut jelly around and mangoes. fruitarians in Caribbean would be doing no harm....right?




  3. #3

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    going on weed can make u more conscious to this type of thing but after I went hospital and came out my thoughts became more limited. I was vegetarian before I went in but came out eating beef, lamb chicken. on some primitive stuff hungry for flesh. but yeah if one is gonna eat meat I'd say do it no more than twice a week coz there are correlations between certain diseases and certain diets. cleaning the colon out with some rhubarb root or cascara sagrada is supposed to be could for dispelling all that rubbish built up. I might order some cascara next week.
    It my lungs um worried about tho




  4. #4

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    Human beings are evolved to eat both plants and animals. Look at your teeth. You have incisors for tearing flesh.

    I can understand why people see some immorality about the factory livestock industry. But generally, these same people have no problem with human babies being pulled out of their mothers' wombs and butchered on a table, dismembered and pulled out of the womb in pieces, or injected with poison to liquefy the baby's flesh. The same people who have no problem with torturing human babies suddenly feel emotion if you kill a cow rapidly with an airgun to its temple. Most of these vegans value the life of a cow more than the life of a human baby. They're frauds.

    As far as dieting? Meat is a healthy part of a diet. Your metabolism slows down as you get older. That means you need to either increase your exercise or else reduce your calories, reduce your meals, or eat your meals earlier in the day and not late at night when your metabolism is at its slowest.

    Crap building up in your intestines is another Vegan LIE. I think gays use it as an excuse to stick vacuum tubes up their anuses.

    Despite what your born-again vegan friend says, “Nothing ‘sits’ in your colon and rots,” explains David Yamini, a gastroenterologist in L.A. who specializes in digestive diseases. “Your digestive system isn’t a recycling center that carefully separates your food into meat, vegetables, grains and so on and processes them separately.”


    Quite the opposite, in fact: Incoming food is chewed into a rough mash before it moves into the stomach for another round of mixing, mashing and marinating, then it travels through the intestine and out through the rectum as a fairly homogenous paste (a sort of fecal version of pink slime).


    The widely held myth that meat — and more specifically, encased meat — hangs around longer than other foods probably stems from the fact that high-protein diets tend to cause constipation. But the actual reason this happens is due to the amount of ammonia that forms as a byproduct of digesting meat, which is then filtered out by your kidneys and flushed out when you pee. “This process uses extra water and if you don’t drink more to compensate, the dehydrating effect can result in constipation,” says Yamini. But while you may be backed up briefly, everything should still pass through your system in a couple of days, tops. https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/...-encased-meats

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    Gehoxagogen ShaDynasty's Avatar
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    ^ There is a distinction between a not fully developed, unconscious fetus living off it's mother's life force and a baby. No matter how you feel about abortion, it's disingenuous to not acknowledge this.

    I don't think humans eating meat is exactly "natural", but nothing we do is, or maybe everything we do is natural. The most important human feature is that we're adaptable. Even 100 years from now I can't imagine there being much debate about whether its okay to treat animals the way we do now. Things change. Standards change.

    You can eat healthily as a vegan, there's nothing in meat that isn't in other stuff. It also has the bonus of not inflicting cruelty on billions of sentient beings and contributing far less to ecological degradation.

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    The ABBOTT
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    I won't eat pork. I am not kosher but my mother in law grew up on farm with hogs and she refuses to eat. Basically pigs will eat their own, bugs, rats, feces of other animals, basically anything edible. Also genetically there have been issues in my family with gall bladders. The human digestive system does not naturally digest pork. Thus can cause issue with gall bladder such as gall stones. Maybe historical societies where more knowledgeable about what we should eat than giving credit for.

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    The real problem is that there are simply too many people around. It hugely magnifies our impact as a species.

    The earlier one child policy in China could be considered cruel but it did the job. However, China has changed its policy.

    Would it be a loss not to grow up with siblings? Definitely. It's a huge part of the socialisation process. Having your only child spend a lot of time with cousins and friends, who stay over too, can help.

    I was a vegetarian for 4 years. I've been there. When I was feeling weak towards the end (no fitness) even though I had balanced out my diet, I started thinking even more about how we deal with animals. I had lots of pets. Many of them were in cages. WRONG. Just 'keep' animals that can roam more or less freely. Amazone forests are burned down for more veggies. WRONG.

    In the end it's not only about what we eat. It is simply the strength of numbers. Any solution we come up with will just be a patch unless you get the overall number of people to stabilize.

    People will tell you :

    we need a bigger population to sustain the Western economy. Really? How healthy and valuabld is that kind of economy? Change the economy.

    we need a bigger population in poor areas so at least some of their children can provide an income for their parents as those grow older. Really? You want to keep that cycle of poverty going? Having fewer children has been proven scientifically over the years to lead to a higher income per family

    but what about the elderly? don't you want them to grow old healthily? Really? Quit the dystopia. Nobody is proposing obligatory euthanasia at seventy. Let the medical field progress. Cure the elderly, cure the children.

    Just have fewer kids. And eat smaller portions. When everybody weighs 200 pounds you can't tell me that doesn't have a huge impact on how we CONSUME nature either.

    Normally I don't post 'oh look at my opinion I'm soooo smart and interesting posts'. everybody else's opinion is as valid as mine. you don't agree with me, that's cool. hell, that's democracy, which I'm all for.

    I'm still not having any kids though, lol. I can tell you a lot of women you meet do NOT look kindly upon that way of thinking and relationship wise it's a hard sell too. no problem, I'm cool with it
    Last edited by Rev Jones; 01-02-2021 at 03:37 AM.
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    Gehoxagogen ShaDynasty's Avatar
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    ^ Good points.

    All the rich countries are facing a population decline now, like China changed their policy but birth rates are pretty much the same.

    All the population growth in the west and other rich countries will be driven by immigration now. Once all the African and Asian countries have stable economies and better education, the decline will happen there too.

    You have to try to convince developing nations to eat less and care about their environmental impact, which is a tough sell. A lot of climate people think it's already too late at this point - we've collectively said ”fuck it” for the last 30 years.

    How come you became vegetarian then went back Hal? I'm not extreme about it but I won't eat mammals just based on the cruelty of the industry, and don't eat birds or fish often for similar reasons. Also try to avoid products with palm oil.

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    I was pussy whipped - my GF at the time was a vegetarian. to give her her due, she came up with a lot of valid arguments and also I was just in lurrrrv. she was a bio engineer and worked for the governmental science department that advised on the official policy of food regulations

    I went back to eating meat when we were still together but she was working abroad (working in the same capacity, but for the NZ government). she knew about it. I had gotten to point where I felt my body was sort of drained of energy. some minerals must have been missing although I had tried to counterbalance it. things improved rapidly when I started eating fish again. a year or so after I eased back into eating meat occasionally

    in reference to what b-dolo posted, when I moved out of my parents' house I was living on a bit of a budget and ate pork meat mostly because it was cheap. I gave that up soonish because it was really fattening (the weight gain was pretty eye opening) and after a while you could sort of tell it wasn't very healthy meat. I no longer eat pork
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    The ABBOTT
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    Have you seen the creation of lab grown meat? Might address some of the issues current meat industry creates. Here is link.

    https://sentientmedia.org/lab-grown-meat/

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    ^^I'm a big fan of the process. they are still working on getting the flavor right but results now are already far better than say 2 years ago. I think this is gonna be a big thing in the future
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    Gehoxagogen ShaDynasty's Avatar
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    That could completely change the meat industry. The issue was the price it costs to grow that meat from stem cells was high, but the price keeps coming down, so it could be a huge game changer in the near future.

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    The ABBOTT
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    Sha what is the issue with palm oil?

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    Gehoxagogen ShaDynasty's Avatar
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    ^ It's used in tons of products, so they cut down rainforests to plant tons of the one plant to put in all kinds of food, shampoo, oil processing etc. It's putting a bunch of species at the risk of extinction and destroying the natural world.

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