My main issue with 8 Diagrams.....

[Pattch82]

I kinda like 8D for the most part, but I've never really had it in regular rotation. All of the Clan came correct lyrically, especially Meth and U-God. My main problem has always been the "feel" of the album, the production and RZA's whole vision for this album. There are some dope tracks that I love... Wolves, Weak Spot and Windmill are probably the 3 best tracks on there imo. Most of the other tracks feel out of place on a Wu-Tang group album. The Heart Gently Weeps, although the MC's come through lyrically, should not be on a Clan album. Same for joints like Starter, Stick Me For My Riches, Get Them Out Ya Way Pa, and the version of Unpredictable that ended up on the album.

But, my main issue is that 8D came out at the end of 2007. RZA then followed it up with his Digi Snacks album a few months after, which pretty much followed the same vision as 8D production-wise. But, earlier in 2007 RZA released the Afro Samurai soundtrack. And towards the end of 2008 or early 2009 he released the Afro Samurai Resurrection soundtrack. Both of these soundtracks completely shit all over 8D and Digi Snacks production-wise.

A lot of people said that RZA had fell off around the time 8D dropped, because the beats were different, mellow, not really Wu-like, grown man type shit. But the Afro Samurai soundtracks are proof that RZA could easily still make absolute bangers!! And this is my issue... we get two bangin' soundtracks in 2007 and 2009 but right inbetween we have an official Wu-Tang Clan album and we get 8D??!!!

There are more than enough beats on the two Afro Samurai soundtracks to compile an absolutely amazing Wu-Tang Clan album, but he uses them on soundtracks and then makes 8D!!!!

Anyone else feel like RZA has done this on a few different occasions? Used bangin' beats on soundtracks and other projects, but then put sub-par/different shit on actual Clan albums?

I've got an Afro Samurai playlist that I've been bangin' over the last few days which got me thinking about this 8D thing... Imagine the Clan on these beats!!

01. Afro Theme / Afro Intro (Instrumental)
02. Certified Samurai feat. Talib Kweli, Free Murder & Suga Bang
03. Just A Lil Dude feat. Q-Tip & Free Murder
04. Who Is Tha Man feat. Rev William Burke
05. Cameo Afro feat. GZA, Big Daddy Kane & Suga Bang
06. Take Sword Pt. I feat. RZA & Beretta 9
07. Killer Bee Till Ya Die feat. RZA, Black Knights & Thea
08. Combat (Afro Season 2 Intro) feat. RZA & P. Dot
09. You Already Know feat. Inspectah Deck Kool G Rap & Suga Bang
10. Whar feat. RZA, Ghostface Killah & Kool G Rap
11. Bitch Gonna Get Ya feat. Rah Digga
12. Bloody Samurai feat. Black Nights, Dexter Wiggles & Thea
13. Arch Nemesis feat. Ace & Moe Roc
14. Brothers Keeper feat. RZA, Rev William Burke & Infinite
15. Take The Sword Pt. III feat. RZA, 60 Second Assassin, Leggezin, Crisis, Christ Bearer, Rugged Monk, Tre Irie, Kinetic & Rev. William Burke
16. Number One Samurai feat. RZA & 9th Prince


How fuckin' crazy is that tracklist?!!! All of these beats are fire and more in the original Wu-Tang sound... especially tracks like Take Sword Pt. I, Combat, Whar, Bloody Samurai and Number One Samurai. The Clan wold have completely MURKED these beats, and they would have probably been happier with the final product rather than Rae, Ghost, etc shitting on the album.

Just my thoughts. Feel free to add on!



Peace!

[Rev Jones]

I. Agree. With. EVERY. Word!

I also feel some of the Ghost Dog beats could have been placed on a Wu-Tang group album. The Ghost Dog OST is of course banging as it is, but just imagine the Clan over some of these beats. Nothing new, many on here stated this before as well.

Back to 8D ... I have made so MANY playlists to make it sound more dynamic : various track orders, adding in original versions and one off tracks ... still does not sit all too well with me.

[Pattch82]

^^Yeah I've done the same with 8D. I put Watch Your Mouth in there and the original version of Unpredictable, took Starter out and made a few other tweaks but it's still not great.

And I agree with Ghost Dog too, I said RZA has done this kinda thing on a few occasions. He dropped Ghost Dog in 1999 which has got some of the best RZA beats on. Then drops The W in 2000 and I was initially disappointed with it. It's grown on me now to the point that it's one of my all time favourite Wu related albums, but at the time I was thinking... imagine some of these Ghost Dog beats on The W... Fo Sho Sho, Zip Codes, The Man, Walk The Dogs, etc. And I will never understand why a dope track like Fast Shadow, with an ODB verse, wouldn't be kept for a Clan album but instead is used as a soundtrack joint. RZA must have known there would be very little ODB on The W. Fast Shadow would have fit perfectly.


Peace!

[num2son]

GHOSTDOG is the best.

[claaa7]

i don't know, i'm a big fan of the atmosphere and track sequence of 8 Diagrams.. to me it really does sound like a cohessive album with lots of stand out moments, more so than "Iron Flag". RZA should have listened more to his comrades in the group and put on "Thug World" original version instead of "Unpredictable" (which could have been dropped as a dope remix instead) and the sample version of "Heart Gently Weeps" is so much better (the one that LOUD first leaked which was the temp track that the vocals was laid over).

still i think 8D is truly a great musical achivement from the Wu-Tang Clan.. i like the slow, menacing vibe of tracks like "Campfire", "Get Them Out Ya Way Pa", "Weak Spot", etc. like i said to me it really holds up as an album + i'm a fan of the way RZA incorporated live instrumentation on the LP for the most part. the big weak spot are some of the hooks, "Starter" being the worst.

the Afro Samurai OST's are slamming though, i agree (just compate "Certified Samurai" to "Starter" lol), but on the whole i'd take 8D over them tbh. Digi Snacks was pretty wack however.

[Rev Jones]

I have a soft spot for Thea's singing (I know that's a minority opinion lol) so I don't mind Digi Snacks too much

[Pattch82]

I really REALLY dislike Digi Snacks apart from one or two tracks... I like the intro beat, Booby Trap is cool, Creep is dope as fuck (not produced by RZA) and the bonus track The Wolf is sick. Everything else is weak in my opinion.

Claaa, I agree with you saying 8D is cohesive, it's definitely a cohesive sound and the album fits together as a whole, I just don't like the feel of it. It could have worked better as a RZA solo album with some Wu guest spots imo.

I would go so far as to say although Iron Flag is not great, the best tracks on Iron Flag are way better than the best tracks on 8D. Uzi, Babies, Back In The Game, Radioactive, Iron Flag, The Glock. Just my opinion though.



Peace!

[Rev Jones]

Yes 8D does have a cohesive feel, same kind of atmosphere on most tracks. I think RZA accomplished tge soundscape he was aiming for personally. but it's not for me

[ShaDynasty]

8 Diagram is dope. Its a late night, trippy suite of songs as opposed to the more immediate and traditional Clan albums. I think if you hear it in the right context and frame of mind you'll get that it wasn't a misstep as much as it was misunderstood at the time.

Also, I think it should be obvious that the approach to making a soundtrack is different to that of making a stand alone LP and certain tracks were created to fit a visual style. The Afro Samurai films are scored brilliantly for example. Of course 8D wasn't perfect but I think its flaws are forgiveable when you look at it as a whole.

[hotnikks]

8D has aged really well imo. If you compare 8D to ABT your gonna say 8D is a classic album.

[MikeAll]

Great discussion that is interesting to read! Whether you hate, dislike, like or love "8D" it sparks real reactions and debate which is a main goal of art...

[josborne3680]

I love 8D. Afro 2 is really good as well. Digi Snacks is pretty bad. I have never heard a bad word spoken about Ghost Dog. If you don't like Ghost Dog then get the f#ck off this site. Ha. Peace

[num2son]

But with 8D, ghost disappeared for the second half.

[claaa7]

But with 8D, ghost disappeared for the second half.

this is a good point and it did hurt the album.. especially as Ghost was on fucking FIRE on the few jams he did rock here. his verse on "Heart Gently Weeps" is certified legendary, matter of fact increible verses saves an otherwise mediocre cross-over single, and so was his verse on "Take it Back". two of Ghost's most intense verses this side of 2005 imo. his verse on "Campfire" definitely sounds like an undercover diss to RZA though haha..

i got the urge to revisit this beautiful LP tonight, just chilling at home after a long work week, grey and rainy outside. perect night for this joint... "Get Them Out Ya Way Pa" is my shit and U-GOD is probably the MVP of the whole album. his raw bass voice and hardcore bars mesh perfectly with the type of beats RZA cooked up here. to me this is the one album where RZA managed to use live instrumentation and the stuff he learned scoring albums in creating a unique chamber that damn near close sticks up to the early round of Wu albums. it's definitely in my top 5 Wu albums post-1997, all categories.

i don't know how he went so wrong with "Digi Snacks" so short after, wish he would've saved "You Can't Stop Me Now" in favor for "Sunlight" though.

[claaa7]

^ LMAO @ this bullshit video though.. the Wu seriously fucked up promotion on what should have been their comeback album, after a six year hiatus. first, "The Heart Gently Weeps" should never have been a fucking single. the verses were fucking dope and it's actually a decent track but it doesn't at all have a Wu vibe and the instrumental outro comes off as cheesy. then you got the drama with Rae and Ghost.. on top of that on the fucking "8 Diagrams" tour they performed exactly ONE song from their new album lmao. not even that in fact, Math started playing "Heart Weeps" and Raekwon flubbed his verse after a few bars.. probably on purpose too.