Originally Posted by
Hal Incandenza
But NATO as a whole DIDN'T try and recruit Ukraine. For NATO, stability in the region is more important - which only works in the way of a status quo of EU + buffer states + Russia. NATO knows Russia goes ballistic when NATO is directly at its borders.
There is a difference between Ukraine wanting to join NATO (which Zelensky has been in favor of increasingly over the last few years) and NATO actually being open to Ukraine becoming a member state (which NATO wasn't in favor of because of Russian sensibilities)
Problems arose IN THE PAST when George Bush Jr was pushing for Ukraine (and Georgia) to become a NATO member(s) when all of the bigger EU member states who are in NATO were totally opposed to that
if shit hits the fan between EU/NATO and Russia it's not that urgent of a problem for the US which is leagues away from a possible war zone. btw if Putin sends missiles/nukes they fly to Brussels, not Washington, NY or Mobile, Alabama
leaders of countries like France and Germany were having a full on heart attack when Bush Jr made the push for Ukraine's NATO membership. they knew it would spell trouble
Bush saw an opportunity to close in on Russia geographically (which is dumb), EU states saw possible disaster in the same scenario instead
anyway, the difference in perspective between EU and Bush within NATO led to the deadly official 'compromise statement' by the NATO "One day Ukraine wille become a NATO member state"
The EU was hoping "one day" = "never"
Bush was hoping "will become a member" = "is practically already a member just by making this statement"
Putin was thinking the same thing as Bush felt about that statement, only it angered it him tremendously. Putin has never forgotten this while all of NATO just moved on after Bush and never seriously considered making Ukraine a member state
It was a very unfortunate public 'compromise statement' to make in the way it affected Putin
like I keep on saying, it's not about what Ukraine itself wanted, it's what organisations like NATO and EU were open to
also, some here seem to think NATO = US. From your point of view it might be. But it isn't. NATO = US + other nations. If US only thought of home advantage for the US, like Bush did about trying to open up NATO membership to Ukraine, that's precisely one of those moments where most of the other NATO members states were about to get fucked
as to the 'We Americans don't care'. Well that's okay, you don't you don't care. Mind if we do care? Half of the EU was a Russian colony up until thirty years agolol Friends I had in other countries had to take Russian in school as a compulsory course. Except for the commie weirdos they hated that shit. Imagine all in the US having to learn to speak Japanese or German and be taught German or Japanese culture trumps your own culture? Sort of like 'The Man in the High Castle' Amazon show and Philip K. Dick novel. Well that was a reality for half of Europe
A lot of Europeans lived this shit, yall were more or less carefree except for the nuke threat EVERYBODY was dealing with. Ask the Polish just how much they miss the good old Russian times. Ask the Germans, the Czech etc etc.
Nobody is trying to make the Ukraine 'endearing'. Just like Ukraine was a safe buffer state for Russia when it wasn't angling for NATO membership (not the same as NATO being open to membership in recent years because it wasn't), Ukraine was also a safe buffer state for the EU before Russians invaded it
obviously any one country can get hit by missiles from the other part of the world in 17 seconds. it's about the psychology of safe distance on the ground between power blocks. In terms of missiles there is no actual safe distance. In terms of people and nations feeling safe there is
What feels better? A shitty neighbor living 3 houses down the block or the same guy moving in right next door and doing his annoying shit right there? you're bound to go through more fuckery that way
the real issue here is that Ukraine might as well be Buthan to the Americans : it's a far away shithole you don't need to care about. that's cool. But for us as EU it's practically next door
US have got no problems that size with their own neighbors : they have Canada for jokes and trucker news and Mexico for drugs and cheap labor. We got some crazy fucker closing in on dementia, with one finger on the red button when he feels threatened, invading the countries that surround him because 'we are all brothers, one same people after all'
And about Zelensky angling for help now. So what? He was offered a ride out of the country as it was going down the drain but he's staying. He's no Mr Clean (corruption ahem) but he's no Afghan figure head fleeing the country with gold bars stacked up high either when the regime collapses
the guy is pushing the same agenda now as before the invasion : HE wants his country to become EU and NATO member. He's not changing his tune. Only he could REALLY do with those membership cards right now because of the invasion. It was NATO (except for Bush Jr back when) and EU who were stalling all along for membership openings.
@ Dooch : no, we don't want to be 'ruled' by the US government. But if given a choice between power blocks we'll go for the US even though obviously there are some problems there - hell there are problems anywhere. but trust me you'd feel the difference in your day to day life if Putin (or Xi) was in charge of the US
like I said it's FINE if you guys don't care. you are obviously welcome to any point of view. but to some of us the threat is close so we do care. IDK how many more ways I can explain how Russia sabotages the EU already, from secret funding over hackings to fake news, we don't need the fucker knocking on the front door additionally
maybe Americans should have a hot Finnish piece of ass on the side right now and ask her how she feels about Putin when you have a smoke after mind blowing sex
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