What do Wu members have against Wu management (Divine, Power, Mook, etc)?

[Jet Set]

most artists' management do everything to NOT let the labels rape them. Dirty had his own manager when he signed with Roc-a-fella, so obviously he didn't like Wu management and it seems most have left them too. Wu management only manages random Killa Beez and the group projects/tours. the solo members have their own management now, which explains Meth acting more than rapping.

it seems the solo Wu generals are unhappy with how much management still get and how bad they were at business in the Wu's heyday.

That thing between ODB & ROC/Dame is still weird. Didn't that kid reach out to him, and to Dame to sign him? . . . Yeah, Jarred Weisfeld. From what i gather, he reached out to ODB to get him some money, and set up the deal with Dame. (I'm saying Dame because word is Hov was not happy with this.) On top of that Jarred was a fucking greenhorn that should have never been in that position in my opinion. Village something wrote a whole article about him in the years since.

The other thing that is going around, is that ODB needed money, or so he thought. So when somebody comes and says they got this money for you immediately, he went in. Besides that, because he did feel like he was financially being fucked over. Got Your Money is supposed to be a dig at RZA. He wanted to be independent like the rest of the Clan, he was the last was still signed on the original management. Reluctantly RZA let him go, though Divine pointed out in the documentary Mics & Men what this meant to the pie. Buddha Monk also explains the money situation a bit in his book.

Since RZA has opened up about the situation stating:

“We talked a lot. When people say that nobody visited ODB in jail, no, I visited ODB in jail. Okay?

“I told him, ’Yo, when you get out, fuck the world. I’m gonna put you in a Manhattan apartment, I’m gonna give you a girl, the kinda girl that’s gonna live with you, she’s gonna take care of you. I’m building a gym for you, the studio is right there, and we don’t need nobody, it’s just me and you and we’re gonna go and do what we said we were gonna do as kids, we’re gonna live out our destiny.’


“And then the week before he was getting out I was on the phone with him. I called Tom Whalley over at Warner Bros. I’m like, ‘Yo, I wanna come over there and I’ma bring Ol’ Dirty over there and we’re just gonna focus on making music.’ And he was like, ‘I got you.’ He gave me numbers. So I told Ol’ Dirty, ‘I got this much money for you. Listen this is gonna be great, you ain’t gotta worry about nothing.’


“While this was going on I had to fly to London because I was doing some press for Derailed.” Referring to the film he starred in alongside Clive Owen and Jennifer Aniston, RZA continues: “ODB got released while I was in London and I was due home two days later. That’s when I saw it on the news: ‘ODB signs with Roc-A-Fella Records.’”

After all the work behind-the-scenes on getting everything ready for Ol’ Dirty’s return it’s understandable that RZA would feel a type of way. Disappointed not only because his brother had gone back on his word, the fact that he had to see the announcement on TV first before being told, especially when other members of the Wu family were present, was obviously going to be a bit of a blow.


He continues: “I was like ‘What the fuck?’ Not only did he sign to Roc-A-Fella but he had Popa Wu standing beside him and he had 12 O’Clock standing beside him. So he had them standing beside him, as well as his mom. There was nothing I could do. I went to see them and his mother said to me, ‘Baby, let him have his own life.’ And all I could say was: ‘Yes, okay auntie.’”

==

Wrong. If that were the case they wouldn't be complaining like they used to. In my opinion it goes both ways. First of all the industry is definitely setup for the Artist to get the least amount of money. As an artist you have to do your best to manage your money properly and expand your brand. Alot of Wu members were not really doing this until basically after 8 Diagrams. But even then they were still depending on the Indie labels. I think Raekwon was the first one to really understand how this shit works. That Run he went on after 8 Diagrams up until Shaolin vs Wu-Tang was great for him. He was an owner and started selling his own Merch. He was eating great around that time. Most of the other clan members still don't have a feel for the independent game, be over charging for everything lol

We really need to celebrate Rae more for his hustling moves on that. He tried great, and most of the time understood what it took. Especially what you are saying, not overcharging. Make me do wonder how Priest is eating right now, because some of his albums on Bandcamp are pretty expensive as a digital version. Charging CD prices. Just weird.

[Sam the Seed]

Thats all eye opening about RZA and the ROC. That was an obvious rushjob by Dame to get some kind of publicity and pimp a big name artist. I hate Dame for that stunt. The shitty reality TV show they made around it had Dame looking into the camera while ODB was signing and saying something corny like, "Yeah, we about to make money" with this smirk knowing he was taking advantage of dude. Jay might've been upset because he looked up to ODB and saw what a bad deal Dame gave him.

But when it comes to RZA, his heart might have been in the right place and I'm sure he had a better plan for Dirty than ODB's own management, but its sounds like Brian Wilson in the Beach Boys with a mentally ill member being the cashcow in the group and feeling other members wanted to control his freedom just for their own bank. Funny enough, that was a beef between cousins too. It sounds like Dirty just wanted a big advance instead of building stead, small money with the Wu. Not wise but it sounds like Wu wasn't handling things well either.

[IrOnMaN]

Thats all eye opening about RZA and the ROC. That was an obvious rushjob by Dame to get some kind of publicity and pimp a big name artist. I hate Dame for that stunt. The shitty reality TV show they made around it had Dame looking into the camera while ODB was signing and saying something corny like, "Yeah, we about to make money" with this smirk knowing he was taking advantage of dude. Jay might've been upset because he looked up to ODB and saw what a bad deal Dame gave him.

But when it comes to RZA, his heart might have been in the right place and I'm sure he had a better plan for Dirty than ODB's own management, but its sounds like Brian Wilson in the Beach Boys with a mentally ill member being the cashcow in the group and feeling other members wanted to control his freedom just for their own bank. Funny enough, that was a beef between cousins too. It sounds like Dirty just wanted a big advance instead of building stead, small money with the Wu. Not wise but it sounds like Wu wasn't handling things well either.

I knew the story b/w ODB and RZA, but not the deal Dame made. I never got the raw details. What kind of deal was it?

[Jet Set]

I knew the story b/w ODB and RZA, but not the deal Dame made. I never got the raw details. What kind of deal was it?

Weisfeld set him up on that deal, together with the TV show. The Elektra contract was already over. He was signed to Wu-Tang Productions though. RZA released him, and Dame paid RZA for some productions on the album according to Buddha Monk. Dirty got an advance, and had to deliver an album for the Roc. Don't know if the guest verses were also part of that deal, or part of the promo campaign.

Both RZa & Hov heard about the deal after the fact, but by this time Hov & dame were already drifting a part.

Just after dirty died, Roc-A-Fella was bought by Def Jam. Dame moved the music to his new label Dame Dash Music Group. That label has since folded, and 10 years ago he was still sitting on that music according to Barson. The A Son Unique that has been released on DSP's, looks like a lossy version based upon the one that was temporarily available on iTunes. Not on the masters.

[Sam the Seed]

So why was RZA shocked Dirty signed to Roc-a-fella if he released Dirty from Wu Tang's management? Not contradicting any of your info but it sounds like RZA knew Dirty didn't want RZA handling his career. I hate Dame not because he swooped in as much as him putting Dirty to work quickly and obviously not caring about his mental recovery or sobriety. Of course RZA would do more for Dirty but I think almost any indie rap label would've done more than Roc did for an artist that big. But you bring up the fact that the Roc was crumbling and Dame was doing funny stuff just to get political power against Jay. Def Jam really should've bought out Dirty's project from Dame but it sounds like Dame might've signed ODB strictly to own a big artist's work when Jay inevitably left him.

Ason Unique is a decent album but a lot of the Roc features and beats seem like random shit Dame owned and threw on there to complete it. There's more music from those recordings that have come out. I was just thinking someone should compile all of it and eliminate the corny Roc artists.

[Jet Set]

So why was RZA shocked Dirty signed to Roc-a-fella if he released Dirty from Wu Tang's management? Not contradicting any of your info but it sounds like RZA knew Dirty didn't want RZA handling his career. I hate Dame not because he swooped in as much as him putting Dirty to work quickly and obviously not caring about his mental recovery or sobriety. Of course RZA would do more for Dirty but I think almost any indie rap label would've done more than Roc did for an artist that big. But you bring up the fact that the Roc was crumbling and Dame was doing funny stuff just to get political power against Jay. Def Jam really should've bought out Dirty's project from Dame but it sounds like Dame might've signed ODB strictly to own a big artist's work when Jay inevitably left him.

Ason Unique is a decent album but a lot of the Roc features and beats seem like random shit Dame owned and threw on there to complete it. There's more music from those recordings that have come out. I was just thinking someone should compile all of it and eliminate the corny Roc artists.

There is this bit from a Complex interview after the doc series:
https://www.complex.com/music/a/shaw...-men-interview

When you were talking about ODB in the doc, you said, "We're the dream itself," meaning that you two were the nucleus of the group. The footage of him goes from 1991 all the way to the end of his life. What was it like looking at all the stuff about Dirty?
RZA: Yeah. That was also very sad and morbid. It was very painful to watch it. You have joy and pain that's happening. You get the joy of him and his energy. And then, the documentary goes and shows the fat Dirty, when Roc-A-Fella had him [Dirty signed to Roc-A-Fella in 2003, after coming out of prison]. I always felt like they never treated [him] the way he was supposed to be treated.

The movie's not kind to Roc-A-Fella.
RZA: No. They never treated him the way he's supposed to be treated. Even a diamond when it comes out of the ground, it's just a rock to be polished, and then cleaned and cut right. When he came out the system they were just like, “No, let's just move him here.” When you watch it, for me it was hard. It was a joy to see my brother. And they got stuff in there that none of us had ever seen in the film, because they had a camera following him. [Dirty was being filmed at the time for a never-completed VH1 reality show, though some footage showed up in a documentary the channel aired]. They was doing something that he didn't know they was doing. Reality shows wasn't real yet like that. He became the first experiment of a reality show, and he didn't know that.


So he's sitting there talking and explaining what's on his mind, and he's being influenced to talk. There's one scene in there where he says, “RZA won't let me out my contract. What the fuck you doing?” He was cursing on camera. And then Jarred [Weisfeld, Dirty’s then-manager] just throws a pin there: “What, RZA wants money?”


I'm never going to ask my cousin for no money or nothing like that. Out of anybody, I feel he is not supposed to leave Wu-Tang Production because this is our dreams. I'm brought back to laying in bed at 12 years old looking up and dreaming. It's just me and this guy. It ain't all of us.

As far as the album goes, Dirty was in the studio with Neptunes for example. But according to accounts from Buddha Monk he just was not himself. He could not pull off the things that Dirty used to do. His health just was not there. N.O.R.E. was not in the studio though, he is on record as saying this.

Talking about funny, Dame signed Posh Spice. She did a track with MOP.

[ShaDynasty]

As far as I can tell the only corny Roc artist on there was Young Chris.

It just wasn't a great album - taking a few features off won't make a difference. He reached the tipping point where the drugs had took over.

[Jet Set]

As far as I can tell the only corny Roc artist on there was Young Chris.

It just wasn't a great album - taking a few features off won't make a difference. He reached the tipping point where the drugs had took over.

While I agree that the album was not great at all, at least the version we got. And I do wonder what was not released, or what Dame is still sitting on. Though RZA is on record as saying there is next to nothing any more, safe for this N***a Please track. I do have to disagree with your point that the drugs took over. There was so much more going on here. First, he was out of shape. You can hear this on the When You Hear That track which was recorded fresh out of jail. Next, he was still coping with the meds they put him on in jail. These meds made him a shadow of his former energetic self. And on top of that, he is coping with being out in the world again. He is just not in a healthy mental space at this point, just scared. I think that was what really had taken him over. The drugs, as in the recreational drugs, that was just a coping mechanism with all the former. We witnessed a broken man being pranced around in front of cameras which be some accounts he did not even know where going to be there. Dirty just needed a safe place for a moment.

[IrOnMaN]

Weisfeld set him up on that deal, together with the TV show. The Elektra contract was already over. He was signed to Wu-Tang Productions though. RZA released him, and Dame paid RZA for some productions on the album according to Buddha Monk. Dirty got an advance, and had to deliver an album for the Roc. Don't know if the guest verses were also part of that deal, or part of the promo campaign.

Both RZa & Hov heard about the deal after the fact, but by this time Hov & dame were already drifting a part.

Just after dirty died, Roc-A-Fella was bought by Def Jam. Dame moved the music to his new label Dame Dash Music Group. That label has since folded, and 10 years ago he was still sitting on that music according to Barson. The A Son Unique that has been released on DSP's, looks like a lossy version based upon the one that was temporarily available on iTunes. Not on the masters.

Great breakdown! Thank you.

While I agree that the album was not great at all, at least the version we got. And I do wonder what was not released, or what Dame is still sitting on. Though RZA is on record as saying there is next to nothing any more, safe for this N***a Please track. I do have to disagree with your point that the drugs took over. There was so much more going on here. First, he was out of shape. You can hear this on the When You Hear That track which was recorded fresh out of jail. Next, he was still coping with the meds they put him on in jail. These meds made him a shadow of his former energetic self. And on top of that, he is coping with being out in the world again. He is just not in a healthy mental space at this point, just scared. I think that was what really had taken him over. The drugs, as in the recreational drugs, that was just a coping mechanism with all the former. We witnessed a broken man being pranced around in front of cameras which be some accounts he did not even know where going to be there. Dirty just needed a safe place for a moment.

Yeah. I remember this in high school and I can recall saying to myself that this wasn't good for Dirty. When I heard he passed, I wasn't surprised but I recall feeling pissed because Dirty still had so much potential. Dame saw a desperate man and then decided to take full advantage.

[IrOnMaN]

Who is Powerules on here? This is what he posted in the comments:

Well for starters, Rae says each Wu member put up $40K for Wu-Wear, and until this day, they have never received a penny on that investment. Rae and U God allege that RZA and Divine hid royalties and other income from the group for years. Those details will have to come straight from the horse's mouth. It wasn't so much that they didn't receive up-front money; they complain that they have yet to receive what is fully due. But yes, again, without RZA, there is no Wu-Tang. He had the vision, intelligence, and business-drive to make things happen, but he is shrewd to the point that he's hard to trust. (Consider he paid Mathematic's all of $250 or $500 for the rights to the Wu logo - seriously, how much money has been made off that brand, and the person who came up with the one of the most iconic logos in the history of music only has sneaker money to show for it?). Most fans understand that when Tommy Boy dropped RZA from his solo deal, he was back to square-one, which involved coming up for a new vision to reemerge within the industry, and he did damn near the impossible - he brought together a group of exceptionally talented jailbirds with multiple egos and got them off the ground.

One of the gripes among the group involves RZA getting involved with Gravediggaz and Killa Army when he had yet to complete all of the Wu solo albums, and had yet to begin working on the second group album. Deck's album was destroyed and he had to pull together his solo albums without much assistance from RZA; U God had a fairly decent first album with multiple producers; and Masta Killa received very little assistance with his solo projects. Rae also complains that when it was time for him to follow-up OB4CL, he approached RZA for help and was basically brushed off. So, on the one hand, you have RZA and Divine running the money aspect of the group, which none of the members were capable of handling. Yet, the main gripe among those complaining is RZA, Divine, and Power didn't reveal the full extent of the revenue stream. And yes, there are a couple of members of the group who were perfectly fine with RZA calling all the shots and being shady with the money. Now musically, I think all fans can identify with the group complaining about the deteriorating production by RZA.

In my opinion, Forever is a dope album, but some of the members began grumbling that the production was lacking, and things only became worse on following albums. Rae says they complained to RZA and suggested bringing in new producers, but by all accounts, RZA is a control freak - again, a control freak who provided the springboard into music careers for a bunch of guys who were living day-to-day, and by all appearances, RZA used their business naïveté to long-term financial disadvantage. Consider what RZA did on the last so-called Wu Tang album - he hijacked a Mathematic's album, and released it as a Wu-Tang album, when it's not even a group effort. And who got paid the most on that project?

Wu Tang LLC - a RZA's controlled entity.

[Sam the Seed]

Damn, that Powerrules comment is brutal if 100% true

Nah, "Ason Unique" has a lot of good verses from ODB. Its easily him at his most skilled and serious as an MC. No, he wasn't energetic or silly or in good spirits. Thats exactly why I like the album. He reveals more of his street background and depressing self-analysis throughout while delivering competent 2000s "club rap" bars over goofy Roc a Fella beats. Its not what Wu fans expect or like but its not that much different than a lot of Wu projects from the last 20 years. Definitely more consistent and weird than Meth's albums or "Ghostface Killahs" which are pretty much the same for-the-money, past-their-prime albums. I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy. "Back In The Air" is one of the best Wu songs from that era. When I say corny artists, I mean Young Chris, Missy, Joe Budden and I haaaate The Clipse (I know I'm in the minority there). The poppy sound kinda throws off the mature, depressing lyrics and Dame sucks for not adjusting Roc to ODB instead of forcing that sound on him.

[Jet Set]

Who is Powerules on here? This is what he posted in the comments:

Nice breakdown. Couple of things though.

He's right about Wu-Wear as far as I know.

When you are just starting out, and you get a designer for a logo. Often you pay them an upfront fee for their work. That's just it. Off course, at that point, when you are not famous, there is not saying how this will take off. You could choose for some other type of contract with money flowing back constantly, but who does that with a designer? That's a lot of paperwork if you just start out. Now there is something to say about revisiting that initial payment and contract. Don't know if that ever happened.

The first Gravediggaz was already in the can before recording on 36 started. Prince Paul had been shopping it around, and nobody wanted it untill Wu took off. Second one was done at the same time as Wu-Tang Forever, in the same studio. Killarmy was handled more by 4th I believe. (If somebody has more info on Killarmy, please elaborate. Same for Sunz of Man. Fuck that first album flows nicely.) Interestingly Rae says that RZA was supposed to go around the dial, and do 10 albums in 7 years. One with each solo member. We know how that ended up for Deck due to the flood. U-God was also left hanging, while hungry. At one point True Master was supposed to handle that album. And I think Masta always plotted his own course and speed. RZA was too busy fucking around with other friends outside of the group according to Rae, I imagine this being Black Knights of the Northstar by that time. Rae did approach by RZA did not have time for his sophomore. Which just sounds so fucking sad. He was ready for another round for the team, but the leader was not there.

Around Wu-Tang Forever, Divine did some interesting accounting according to Rae. His whole book is him asking for transparency of the money, which he did not get. Only a 'don't worry about it'. For the second album they got an advance, and there was a budget for everyday expenses and housing. Apparently only Divine knew that number. He gave everything American Express cards to use to cover their costs of living in L.A. At the end they got served with itimized bills for what they bought with those cards which was subtracted from their advances and not from the recording budget.

Btw, I thought they wanted to bring in outside producers after Forever?

Cyrus touched upon something interesting in his book in regard to OUATIS, and maybe Ringz elaborated on here. The point being made was about the sales of the album. How much would it sell if it was a Ringz album, and how much would it sell if it was a Clan album? That last number would be significantly higher due to the name. The name would also bring other people to the table, Divine, Power et al. Besides Ringz & the Clan, they would also be eating of this pie for which they put no time in.

The last album Mathematics sold, that was The Answer from 2013. My guess is, not a lot of people know about that, nor that it sold a lot. I see on Spotify he has about 7,500 monthly listeners with his most listened song being Cash Still Rules at over 9 million. The second best is Wu-Gambinos at 61,000. Both songs from his Avenging Eagles mixtape. On the other hand, you have the Clan with over 6 million monthly listeners. All the top 10 songs of the Clan clock in at over 10 million streams. A rough estimate would be that this would at least 10 fold of what he would have done on the strength of his own name. Plus he could do a lot of press which he otherwise could not have. I have to agree though, did the sage continue? Or did we see a breakthrough in who got paid the most?

[hiphopjunky]

I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy.

Do you like any tracks on OB4CL2? I'm surprised by this take

[David Daniel Davis]

Damn, that Powerrules comment is brutal if 100% true

Nah, "Ason Unique" has a lot of good verses from ODB. Its easily him at his most skilled and serious as an MC. No, he wasn't energetic or silly or in good spirits. Thats exactly why I like the album. He reveals more of his street background and depressing self-analysis throughout while delivering competent 2000s "club rap" bars over goofy Roc a Fella beats. Its not what Wu fans expect or like but its not that much different than a lot of Wu projects from the last 20 years. Definitely more consistent and weird than Meth's albums or "Ghostface Killahs" which are pretty much the same for-the-money, past-their-prime albums. I even like it more than OB4CL2 which always bores me and is low energy. "Back In The Air" is one of the best Wu songs from that era. When I say corny artists, I mean Young Chris, Missy, Joe Budden and I haaaate The Clipse (I know I'm in the minority there). The poppy sound kinda throws off the mature, depressing lyrics and Dame sucks for not adjusting Roc to ODB instead of forcing that sound on him.

A lot of Ason Unique was ghost written by Royal Flush.

[ForensikZ]

Dude in that comment is ivereacting

rza made the W a global logo. Its just a drawing that was paid for on spec like any other art project. He turned it into a global thing. Math got to be the wus dj for it, fair trade imo. Hes globally known as wus dj and was the only guy getting beats on albums post 2000s as true and 4th got left behind totally minus a few tracks.

Rae shoulda focused on taking less checks and putting that power into his aobuks cuz both his second and tbird albums are weak yet in those years he was at his peak, musta had 200 tracks for features, wu features, mixtape exclusives and soundtrack cuts.

rae also dont speak at all on power even tho he accuses him of stealing so what is it?

i dont wanna hear wu over other producers shit. Sorry. None of the producers make the wutang sound. Them chasing those other sounds is what hurt them. When they followed the formula, ie. No said date in 04, cuban 2 in 09, they did well. They all ate. None of them have to release another album. There isnt another rap group eating like them. Rza did that for them. A better tomorrow was wack but 8d wasnt. Iron flag was the groups choices. They all want rza to hold their hand when they need him. But will leave him hanging like the 8d fiasco or cuttin his shit on cuban 2.