What do Wu members have against Wu management (Divine, Power, Mook, etc)?

[TSA]

Record deals tend to suck if you're a dumbass, and they're even worst if you're a lazy dumb ass. You can sign a bad deal (for some reason) but they usually have limitation clauses. We need 4 albums, etc etc. Nigga, make the four fucking albums. The issue is these guys take 20 years to make 4-5 albums. How much money can a label and a rapper make if you produce a tangible product every 3-4 years. The labels do a lot more work than the artist. All the artists has to do is make music, perform and do appearances. The label should of course make more money. The company also has the job of managing these ridiculous characters into a tangible product.

Did Wu management fuck over ODB or did ODB, as a well defined character trait, not cooperate with anything, constantly violate the law, disappear for large periods of time, not show up for his own events, and have minimal to no actual work effort in the recording process? We're on our 3rd Masta Killa album in about 30 years? I think our 4th-5th Deck. When Wu-tang would go on radio etc in the 90s, Methodman did all the freestyling, all the talking. Method man also has the least amount of complaints about Wu-management.


Then when you leave these artists to their own devices, you realize it was the company you're a fan off and the guy is a bit of a moron. Put a camera in front of Ugod or Rae and they'll shit on Wutang (Their only real source of income and success). Put it in front of Meth or Rza, doesn't happen.

[TSA]

We owe a lot of appreciation to record companies. They're the ones that made 90s rap make sense and seem cool and digestable. The shit looks disgusting now because the artists are more in charge. And with that increased control they want you to see themselves fist fighting their girlfriend who they pay $100,000k monthly to be mid and disagreeable. Nobody has to sign 'a bad deal' and all the wutang members owe a lot to Wu-Management. Imagine trying to run a company and some idiot decides to bring his 14 armed friends, so now you have to get a second bus, then the idiot starts complaining that you're skimping on his check because this 1 show with 9 men plus their individual friends is the only financial endevour he'll pursuit in the next 2 years as an adult man with 11 kids.

[noel411]

Not sure why I opened this page of this thread and read those last 2 posts, but lolz @ them.

One of few episodes I thought was quite well done in the shitty Wu show, was the one where Divine was running around the Wu mansion trying to manage all those bozos. It can't have been easy.

When I was watching that show I was thinking how completely impossible it would have been and always would be to adequately manage a group of 9 rowdy hood dudes, and actually make a proper, long term go of it. No matter who or how many people are managing them, it's gonna be an absolute fucking nightmare.

They did well, considering.

[IrOnMaN]

Dude in that comment is ivereacting

There isnt another rap group eating like them. Rza did that for them. A better tomorrow was wack but 8d wasnt. Iron flag was the groups choices. They all want rza to hold their hand when they need him. But will leave him hanging like the 8d fiasco or cuttin his shit on cuban 2.

BTNH, but Easy rob them with that deal.

RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

[Sam the Seed]

Watched the 2004 Rock the Bells doc covering Wu's last performance together, 4 months before ODB's death. Shows all the members had separate managers at this time. The promoters booked every member individually without telling RZA it was a reunion. RZA had the power to nix the whole thing but allowed it because he knew how historic it would be. There's some interviews with ODB's manager who was a VH1 exec who got the reality show greenlit by lying that he knew ODB. He befriended ODB in jail and agrees along with ODB's mom that it was prison that ultimately killed him. He went to max security with killers & rapists, never slept and got his jaw broken. The clan didn't reach out to him except Meth and maybe someone else. And when he got out he was severely depressed and given drugs by fans on his solo tour. Thats why he showed up to the reunion messed up and where he got the coke that finally killed him. (he swallowed it at airport security)

[Sam the Seed]

Record deals tend to suck if you're a dumbass, and they're even worst if you're a lazy dumb ass. You can sign a bad deal (for some reason) but they usually have limitation clauses. We need 4 albums, etc etc. Nigga, make the four fucking albums. The issue is these guys take 20 years to make 4-5 albums. How much money can a label and a rapper make if you produce a tangible product every 3-4 years. The labels do a lot more work than the artist. All the artists has to do is make music, perform and do appearances. The label should of course make more money. The company also has the job of managing these ridiculous characters into a tangible product.

Did Wu management fuck over ODB or did ODB, as a well defined character trait, not cooperate with anything, constantly violate the law, disappear for large periods of time, not show up for his own events, and have minimal to no actual work effort in the recording process? We're on our 3rd Masta Killa album in about 30 years? I think our 4th-5th Deck. When Wu-tang would go on radio etc in the 90s, Methodman did all the freestyling, all the talking. Method man also has the least amount of complaints about Wu-management.


Then when you leave these artists to their own devices, you realize it was the company you're a fan off and the guy is a bit of a moron. Put a camera in front of Ugod or Rae and they'll shit on Wutang (Their only real source of income and success). Put it in front of Meth or Rza, doesn't happen.

Almost no one makes money off record deals. The albums you make for labels are just advertisement for your tours & merch. And the ones who do make money are the ones who get to renegotiate a deal because they did whatever the label wanted.

Artists not producing a lot is entirely on the labels. How the music business works: you get a big advance that is really a loan. Labels want the artist to spend that advance PLUS pay for the recording of the album. Why? Because the bigger advance they give, the less they have to pay artists later from their actual music. This happens with 99.9% of rappers' first deals because they are young and broke. Rappers make nothing off the albums unless its a big success. They are the last to get paid. So when they do the 2nd album, the label makes most of the decisions because the artist still owes them that advance for getting signed. And if the label doesn't like the music, they can just shelve the music and let an artist's contract expire and block them from making music or getting signed by better labels. Happened a hundred times with rappers who were popular but didn't release music when they should have.

And this happened with Wu too. What 2nd generation solo album was really given the marketing or production it deserves besides Nigga Please and Supreme Clientele? And neither album had a strong follow-up. Because rappers don't make anything off the actual albums unless the label puts marketing to make it a success and doesn't rape them with a big deal.

And the Wu are middle-aged now. The labels are not going to put money into older dads when they can make more money off young idiots right out the hood they can 100% control and pay pennies and tour 24/7 while taking their show & merch money. There just aren't enough small/indie hip-hop labels for most veteran or alternative rappers anymore.

Big corporate labels aren't good guys saving niggas from the hood and trying to make stars. They're about making money even if the artist doesn't blow. They sign 100 artists expecting maybe 5 to work out. And they save all their money for the most safe and gullible "talent" and just use the rest. No one can even argue against that.

[ForensikZ]

BTNH, but Easy rob them with that deal.

RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

[IrOnMaN]

rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

Trust me, Bone is still releasing music and touring. All five members are doing well still.

[Mumm Ra]

rza made them forever superstars with the first run alone. Everyone claimed their second albums were weak when they were still the best albums in the game.

and bone is NOT eating like wu. Wu on a 2 year 5 continent tour with nas right now. One if the biggest tours EVER.

facts. The concert presentation from Wu-Tang the last 8 years is telling enough. Just to bring stage-sized screens with expertly choreographed Kung Fu clips and Wu animations to EVERY show has to be insanely expensive. Like 50+ thousand a show expensive of their own expense, but they are able to do that now.

They dont gotta make music again. They good off the classics. Not many if any hip hop artists can say that. Even the guys whos been hot thhe past ten years cant put a tour like that together.


rzas plan made them immortal. Call it what you want. It worked.

GZA can put his hands in his pockets, stand in one place or sit on a stool for an hour and sell out a venue in most cities on a whim, and he's almost 60 fucking years old lol. Not a single BTNH member can do this.

RZA not wanting the generals not to collab with other artists in the 90s is control freakish.

It's impossibly freakish what he actually had to do to make Wu-Tang what it is though. Like ForensikZ said he made them superstars and while doing so he took infinitely less pay for their albums. He could've charged any artist 50-150 thousand per beat since the mid 90's - that alone should come with the level of authority. The older I get the more I think what RZA did is some kind of historical anomaly, idk if it'll ever be fully appreciated.

I'm super glad they weren't working with random artists at that time anyway, it would have taken away from their allure. Even if he was control freakish, it's a moot point compared to what he got correct.

[Jet Set]

facts. The concert presentation from Wu-Tang the last 8 years is telling enough. Just to bring stage-sized screens with expertly choreographed Kung Fu clips and Wu animations to EVERY show has to be insanely expensive. Like 50+ thousand a show expensive of their own expense, but they are able to do that now.

With current technology, those screens should be a lot cheaper compared to 20-30 years ago. Does make me wonder though what the cost of the show would be, I'll see if someone can answer that. (I remember this talk where people talking about designing a stage for Amon Tobin, and taking into account the maximum size that could fit in a container for shipping.) That being said, that shit was needed to finally bring those sort of chaotic shows to something that their fanbase would like to see. No 40 year old wants to see 9 people just sort of dwell on stage for 40 minutes and leave.

GZA can put his hands in his pockets, stand in one place or sit on a stool for an hour and sell out a venue in most cities on a whim, and he's almost 60 fucking years old lol. Not a single BTNH member can do this.

I think GZA has gotten a pretty steady stream of money with those lectures he did, as well as a lot of new connections within the science scene. Shit, he even did a whole series called Liquid Science.

It's impossibly freakish what he actually had to do to make Wu-Tang what it is though. Like ForensikZ said he made them superstars and while doing so he took infinitely less pay for their albums. He could've charged any artist 50-150 thousand per beat since the mid 90's - that alone should come with the level of authority. The older I get the more I think what RZA did is some kind of historical anomaly, idk if it'll ever be fully appreciated.

I'm super glad they weren't working with random artists at that time anyway, it would have taken away from their allure. Even if he was control freakish, it's a moot point compared to what he got correct.

Probably not. What people in '98 were writing about was that the brand was being devalued with all these releases. This is in the eyes of the more mainstream public. Those are the same people that just take for granted what RZA did.

[Sam the Seed]

That being said, that shit was needed to finally bring those sort of chaotic shows to something that their fanbase would like to see. No 40 year old wants to see 9 people just sort of dwell on stage for 40 minutes and leave.

Thats not how a Wu Tang stage show went before whatever they're doing now with RZA's kung fu clips or whatever. It was usually 50 Wu affiliates on stage with the 8 to 10 guys being cycled out so no one got tired. Their set list (and the concept of the entire group) is designed so the spotlight is constantly changing. What makes Wu Tang unique to any hip-hop act is their live set NEVER gets dull. And the real appeal IMO is the other members in chorus finishing other guy's lyrics. Even ODB til the end knew everyone else's lyrics and even solo songs. And the individual members had their own crew members backing them up too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaZ_hF5UG_A

[Mumm Ra]

With current technology, those screens should be a lot cheaper compared to 20-30 years ago. Does make me wonder though what the cost of the show would be, I'll see if someone can answer that. (I remember this talk where people talking about designing a stage for Amon Tobin, and taking into account the maximum size that could fit in a container for shipping.) That being said, that shit was needed to finally bring those sort of chaotic shows to something that their fanbase would like to see. No 40 year old wants to see 9 people just sort of dwell on stage for 40 minutes and leave.

I was guessing 50k just based off watching a lot of comedian's podcasts, and I've heard some super successful ones say they've spent $200k just for premium lighting when recording their specials - that's just to rent it for one night. You have to take in account even the wages for the manpower in order to set up Wu's new stage media and make sure it's programmed and ran flawlessly, also to store it, have it travel from city to city. I just know it's definitely not an insignificant cost to do that every single show.

[Sam the Seed]

Listening to some old interviews, I think RZA really didn't look out for brothers. Cappadonna got raped by his 1st record deal and others. Poppa Wu defends RZA by saying "If they didn't read the contract, thats on them". Bullshit. RZA and GZA got raped themselves before, so they should've made sure everyone knows how the record business pimps artists with advances and recoupment. And the "Once Upon" album is bullshit. The Clan did those verses not knowing it was for a group album, then RZAgot them to sign off on it. But only RZA got paid off that big sale.

I mean, I love the Rza as an artist but he's not as close and protective of the other members as they are to each other. I think it was a real family to most members but for RZA he was only looking out for his real family - GZA, ODB, Divine, 9th Prince.

Others will say he can do that because Wu Tang is his creation and he's the producer, but the other members really made him. He would never make it as a solo act or they really don't have to take unfair deals just because they owe him for the group.

[David Daniel Davis]

Rza is always going to pull rank and say, "Where would you be if I never included you in the group?" Whenever he gets questioned about contracts and finances.

[Sam the Seed]

Yeah and members will always accept it because the management is on RZA's side forever. It is what it is. I understand why many members get fed up. And I understand RZA set things up when he was much younger and less spiritually evolved. These cats weren't his brothers yet. I wish they would renegotiate so maybe its a real equal partnership. The Wu Wear deal is evidence members don't get fair compensation.