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Thread: Muscle and Science

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    Default Muscle and Science

    In many areas people these days seem to lack the ability to think critically and logically, instead they cling to irrational views. Specifically, in the arena of body building there seems to be little reason behind the methods most people employ in their attempts to build muscle, reduce fat, and shape their bodies.

    The reality is that when dealing with the human body it does not react to what we WANT it to react to in the way we WANT it to react. Arbitrarily chosen training methods are just random stabs in the dark. There are certain biological traits that govern the human body and its growth. If you give a body what it needs to grow it will, and if you do not, no matter how much you may want what you are doing to work or how much effort you put in, your results are bound to be far less than optimal.

    Muscle Growth
    The requirements for a muscle to grow can be simply summarized as:
    1.The muscle needs to be pushed past what it can normally handle
    2.Then muscle needs rest to heal and then grow stronger
    3.The muscle needs calories to be used by the muscles to repair and grow

    This is a biological truth which applies to all humans. The intensity that can be handled in the muscle may vary from person to person. One person my fail with 8 reps of 10kg and another might fail with 8 reps of a 15kg weight, but this does not change the fact that in order for the muscle to grow the muscle has to be pushed past its normal limits (to failure ie. It is impossible to perform another rep in good form). Any form of resistance training which does not push a muscle to failure will simply produce less than optimal growth.

    Once the muscle is pushed past its limit continuing to push it is also a waste of time and the body's resources. All the gym heroes who are in gym 2 hours a day, 6 times a week thinking they will be rewarded with above average results are wasting their time, and in fact inhibiting their growth severely. One the muscle is pushed past its limit it will then draw on the body's recovery resources to firstly recover from the work out and then grow stronger to better handle future demands.

    To recover and grow a muscle needs rest. Continuing to put strain on the muscle before it has healed will stop the recovery/growth process and is counterproductive. As much as you gym heroes would like to believe otherwise, more is not better. The precise amount necessary is optimal. Until the muscle has totally recovered (meaning there is NO soreness left) and the muscle given time to heal you should not be working out again. After all pain from the work out is gone there will be signs that the body is still growing/recovering in symptoms of overall systemic stress. Signs of this can be tiredness, slight depression etc. You shouldn't re-enter the gym for another work out until you physically feel great and ready to hit the weights again. For me this has meant usually one week between each work out (work outs of about 30 minute duration give or take).

    A lot of the gym Supermen out there can probably relate to being always depressed and tired and not looking forward to their workouts or enjoying them. Not only do you not grow, you mope around the gym with no enthusiasm, talk a lot, do some shitting reps with bad form here and there, then walk out thinking you have hit it hard.

    How much you need to eat is something that is also often distorted. To grow all a person has to do is eat slightly above their calorie maintenance level. Your body can only assimilate a certain amount of protein. Your body only uses a certain amount of calories. Eating less than needed will cut short growth. Eating excessively will lead to a build up of fat on the body. You should know your calorie maintenance level, how much protein and carbs you need and take these in through regular meals through out the day.

    Fat loss
    The most efficient way to lose fat is a form of cardio done at a level where breathing is not strained. If you are gasping for air the exercise become anaerobic and the energy comes from glycogen in the muscles and not the body's fat stores. This uses the body's resources as well as being an extremely inefficient way to burn fat. Performing weights with higher reps and lower intensity also burns a negligible amount of fat and is likely to do nothing but waste time.

    Steroids
    Steroids help an individual's anabolism (muscle growth). These drugs have several pretty severe side effects. A lot of guys seem to take them so have those ugly, puffy water-retention arms and nothing else. It looks stupid and I don't know why someone would risk the serious health problems steroids are known to cause for this is beyond me. It is more comprehensible that a professional, competing body builder who has reached their genetic limit would take them to push them beyond their natural capacity. But why these dickheads, for the sake of egotism and laziness would need steroids to have slightly bigger arms I do not understand.

    Also, it is a shame that a further pressure is coming from natural body builders who look like rubbish. Just because you aren't drugged up it is no excuse to be built like a swimmer. It is called body building (building as in adding mass) and simply getting cut belongs in a fitness contest. If you don't have the genes to build mass, it is unfortunate if you wanted to be a body builder, but the poor state of natural body building projects the image that only drug uses can put on any real size. If you want to grow rely on knowledge and avoid the cop outs.
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    Walk Like a Warrior blackwisdom's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this thread. When I took my Biology class we had to do an experiment to determine how healthy our diets were. Mines was good but I'm going to get my base metabolic rate tested so I can refine my diet. After that I'ma get a good workout routine back on. I know that I couldn't gain super mass even if I was eating meat and taking supliments. My bone structure is so long and lakgy. I'm cool with my body composition, I just want to refine and maximize my overall physical.

    One thing from your post. You said that you shouldn't go back into the gym until your soarness and pain goes away right? Are you speaking of all pain out of the body, or just that particular muscle group? I use to work major muscle groups, and it took me almost 4 days to go through them. Then I rested for the remaining days. Is that cool? I'm about to get serious again and would like your insight. Thanks.

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    Hanovallah HANZO's Avatar
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    i been training since i was 16. im genetically well built, i was 6ft2 and 110 kilos when i started. so my main aim was to lose weight. in a year i dropped to 82kilos. in the past 2 years i been building muscle. i now weigh around 105 kilos, but im 6ft 5 now. my height doesnt allow me to train like a bodybuilder, its incredibly difficult to squat or dead lift. i've been pretty lazy recently, i got back from a knee injury returned to the gym and jus as i was getting into form, i had university exams. studying put me off going to the gym. now i gotta work my way back.

    my bodybuilding is influenced by my brother. who is 21 and probably at competition level already. he started training at 13 and takes his training serious. he been on steroids for a year now, and theres been a huge difference, he overdo any of the steroids, he has a lot of knowledge about them and consultated many doctors before he took them. because of his knowledge about using them he has built a proper bodybuilders physique. his mates saw his progress and wanted to go on them. a perfect example of wat u were talking about subtle, my brothers 3 mates started steroids. and did nothing. they didnt even go to the gym, but still expected to get big jus because they used steroids. i hate that view on training. i also hate ppl who sign up 3 months before the summer and think they can build a supreme body 2 months.

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    For steroids, the reasons wrestlers use them is because they have a very limited amount of time because of their extensive road trips they are on 25 days out of the month. It is very difficult not to be on them.

    For muscle soreness, some people's muscles heal faster than others. Mine is usually 48 hours. If my diet is poor during those days lacking the nutirents that I need it takes longer.

    However, different muscles have different healing times depending how you work them and what they are commonly used for.

    But still there are studies on how long someone should work out for a day before it becomes defective without supplements between. Also there are new studies that show it is beneficial to do full body workouts each day rather than focusing on one muscle group at a time.



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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleEnergies View Post
    [B][COLOR=yellow]

    To recover and grow a muscle needs rest. Continuing to put strain on the muscle before it has healed will stop the recovery/growth process and is counterproductive. As much as you gym heroes would like to believe otherwise, more is not better. The precise amount necessary is optimal. Until the muscle has totally recovered (meaning there is NO soreness left) and the muscle given time to heal you should not be working out again. After all pain from the work out is gone there will be signs that the body is still growing/recovering in symptoms of overall systemic stress. Signs of this can be tiredness, slight depression etc. You shouldn't re-enter the gym for another work out until you physically feel great and ready to hit the weights again. For me this has meant usually one week between each work out (work outs of about 30 minute duration give or take).

    [B][COLOR=yellow][FONT='Courier New']A lot of the gym Supermen out there can probably relate to being always depressed and tired and not looking forward to their workouts or enjoying them. Not only do you not grow, you mope around the gym with no enthusiasm, talk a lot, do some shitting reps with bad form here and there, then walk out thinking you have hit it hard
    I average three times a week at the gym, i've been training for many years and during that time it has been a constant trial and error process with me, i've made many mistakes in the past but have learn't from them as well. I have made gains in the past but only this year have I made dramatic improvements, only last saturday people noticed I was more muscular. It takes time to get things right even with all the information at hand. putting the knowledge into practice is not as easy as it seems, because peoples bodies react differently what's right for one person may not be right for the other.

    No matter how you simplify things, even highlighting it with bullet points, it's always going to be a case of trial and error. Some will get there quicker while others will struggle more. Im 6'5 and for me to gain the mass needed has not been easy, I had to go through various motions before things started getting clearer, offcourse im still learning but now im at a stage where the gains are happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAN88 View Post
    i been training since i was 16. im genetically well built, i was 6ft2 and 110 kilos when i started. so my main aim was to lose weight. in a year i dropped to 82kilos. in the past 2 years i been building muscle. i now weigh around 105 kilos, but im 6ft 5 now. my height doesnt allow me to train like a bodybuilder, its incredibly difficult to squat or dead lift. i've been pretty lazy recently, i got back from a knee injury returned to the gym and jus as i was getting into form, i had university exams. studying put me off going to the gym. now i gotta work my way back.
    Im 6'5 too and I don't have a problem with deadlifts, maybe your form is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prolifical ENG View Post
    For steroids, the reasons wrestlers use them is because they have a very limited amount of time because of their extensive road trips they are on 25 days out of the month. It is very difficult not to be on them.

    For muscle soreness, some people's muscles heal faster than others. Mine is usually 48 hours. If my diet is poor during those days lacking the nutirents that I need it takes longer.

    However, different muscles have different healing times depending how you work them and what they are commonly used for.

    But still there are studies on how long someone should work out for a day before it becomes defective without supplements between. Also there are new studies that show it is beneficial to do full body workouts each day rather than focusing on one muscle group at a time.
    It normally takes 48 hours for my soreness to completley dissapear too, I try to give a day between workouts but sometimes it's not possible so what I do is I plan my workouts so that whatever part im working out, im keeping minimum usage of the muscles which are recovering.

    Also if you want to get big, you have to focus on one muscle group at a time because you need to give it plenty of stimulation, if you train the chest you have to give it 100% attention not 25%. you train the chest once a week, by the time the next week rolls around you would have had plenty of time to recover.



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    Hanovallah HANZO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAURO, DA GRIM LATIN View Post
    Im 6'5 too and I don't have a problem with deadlifts, maybe your form is wrong.
    i've always had small back problems eversince i attempted a 980kilo leg press. i made it but it killed my back. this with the added bonus that i really lift heavy for a 19 year old. i kno i shouldnt but jus cant help it. also the fact that i train with real big ppl. my brother who is huge and rhino(the dude from the gladiators program way back on english tv) they lift heavy so i try and keep up. i should really train at my level, but im getting this bodybuilder arrogance which isnt good.

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    Your not doing yourself any favours, you shouldn't worry what other people are lifting, get over your arrogance and train the proper way. If your brother really wanted you succeed he would tell you the same.



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    Anyone training more than once a week I suggest you check out the book Heavy Duty Training the Mike Mentzer Way.

    I made the most progress by far when I started training under 30 minutes a week, every body part only being trained once a month. I wasted alot of time in the gym with sub-optimal progress till I found that book.
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    Walk Like a Warrior blackwisdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleEnergies View Post
    Anyone training more than once a week I suggest you check out the book Heavy Duty Training the Mike Mentzer Way.

    I made the most progress by far when I started training under 30 minutes a week, every body part only being trained once a month. I wasted alot of time in the gym with sub-optimal progress till I found that book.
    Thanks. I'ma get it and check it out. I knew there was a reason I came back to Wu Tang Corps.

    But does that go for people who just want to stay toned and gain a bit of muscle as well? Please advise.

    "Read everything, listen to everybody, don't trust anything unless you can prove it with your research." - William "Bill" Cooper
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    Yes. If you read the part on my first post under fat loss I explained it.

    To build MUSCLE the training to failure is the most efficient way.

    To lose fat cardio with oxygen present is the most efficient way.

    Doing something like like reps with a weight isn't going to build lean muscle....it will simply be a very inefficient way of burning calories and of building muscle....most likely neither will happen significantly.

    Muslce and fat are seperate. How much muscle mass you have is one thing....how "toned" you look is simply how much fat is over that muscle.

    Therefore, use the hight intensity to build any muscle you want and then strip away the fat with cardio. Don't try and mix the two into one sub-optimal exercise.

    Also, I would like to point out I have never seen a woman who looks overly masculine from weights. From weights, steroids, and tribulus maybe.....but most women do not have enough testostorone to become too bulky....most guys have trouble even.

    So for example...if you wanted to tone your upper arms...you would build the muscle you want by taking the tris and biceps to failure (once a month is how often I hit each muscle group and I still am gaining weight) and then remove the fat by burning calories (a localised fat loss doesn't happen, when you burn fat it is taken from all over your body....different people store fat in different areas....being black you drew the good card though lol). If you did happen to build too much...then you could cut back the training...but I doubt many people ever accidently walk out a gym looking like Ronnie Coleman.

    Also, this is good for the martial artist. Apart from the fact that I am usually very sore for the first 2-3 days after training, and don't recover till the 7th or sometimes later.....I have ALOT more free time. Infact up until I found this training I gave up martial arts to do weights.

    Oh one more thing....if you do want to burn fat....all you need to do is use more calories than you eat. So anything you burn with exercise could just not be eaten in the first place. This site explains how it works well and EXACTLY what you need to be eating to do what you want...

    http://www.theloseweightdiet.com/lose-weight1.html

    I prefer to lose fat by not eating rather than cardio coz I just don't have time....problem is I LOVE food lol.
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    LOL I thought Black was a woman for ages - "wisdom" lol sorry dude. Ignore the woman advice....I added you on myspace.
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAN88 View Post
    i've always had small back problems eversince i attempted a 980kilo leg press. i made it but it killed my back. this with the added bonus that i really lift heavy for a 19 year old. i kno i shouldnt but jus cant help it. also the fact that i train with real big ppl. my brother who is huge and rhino(the dude from the gladiators program way back on english tv) they lift heavy so i try and keep up. i should really train at my level, but im getting this bodybuilder arrogance which isnt good.
    980k kilo leg press????
    the world record of Ronnie Coleman is 1034 kilo (2300 pounds)

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    I used to get out upwards of about 550 kg......I don't train the same any more but my legs would be alot stronger....980 though....lol forget that....
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    Last edited by SubtleEnergies; 08-17-2007 at 06:42 AM.
    Wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it

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    Hanovallah HANZO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illegitimate Devil View Post
    980k kilo leg press????
    the world record of Ronnie Coleman is 1034 kilo (2300 pounds)
    i pressed it at a wide angle. not the default angle. so if u calculate the actual weight force was around 600kilos. i admit it werent a legit press. when i did it i sat down with the original incline, and only could lift i like a centimetre, so i changed it so i can to a full rep. still hard to lift though and it did injure me. so i dnt advise.

    and ronnie coleman could probably press 10 tons, i met him a couple months back. the guy is not human. u can sense the power he has when u shake hands with him.
    Last edited by HANZO; 08-17-2007 at 04:59 PM.

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