8Diagram thoughts after hearing Rza interview...

[the silencer]

listening to the intro track and then hearing everything Rza is saying about the album i think i'm starting to get exactly what made Rae come out and say this shit about the album and call Rza a hippie and all that...

the opening of the album is (***LOOK AWAY IF UR NOT LISTENING TO THIS SHIT YET***) a kung-fu flick sample of a guy speakin about how kindness and justice are the foundation, etc, etc i only listened to it twice. And during the interview Rza keeps emphasizing that the album is "on time," that the world needs Wu-Tang right now. He says that Wu-Tang and especially Rza is in the right state or frame of mind for the world and for America, and from that sort of talk I would expect to hear some intelligent, dare I say "up-lifting" tracks and lyrics, alot of positive shit. No Bring the motherfuckin ruckus (wow thats actually a real word) on this joint it looks like..

He also said that the Heart Sutra, which is a deep Buddhist aphorism, is on the album, being read in Mandarin because if a person hears the Heart Sutra once in their life it opens their spirit or frees their spirit or something like that..

To me personally, this all sounds great i love it. I've kinda grown out of the Bring the motherfuckin ruckus state of mind as i've gotten older and, in fact, Wu-Tang and especially Rza has been a major catalyst in that change for me. And I'm heavily into reading all kinds of deep books that deal with some of this type of material (mostly Joseph Campbell and Fritjof Capra right now). So, from my perspective, this is dope. Exactly what i want. Can't wait to hear 8 Diagrams.


BUT:
i can now totally see where Rae is coming from. Rae said they wanna make some "punch you in your face" type music. He said "i'm not a soul brother" and he called Rza a "hip hop hippie" as we all know.

i think that's just a fact of life for the Clan as they are now. Rza's been blossoming intellectually for a while now, and i would definitely say he IS a hip hop hippie but i consider myself sort of a "hippie" too in many ways (mostly heavy weed-smoking, reading books on crazy shit, FUCK the government, stuff like that) so I don't see anything wrong with that. He's still the Rzarectah trying to uplift ppl's minds and shit but he's learned aLOT about stuff since the last time he was Rzarect'ing the mentally dead so he's a little diff now with it..

but with all that, then he's also the Abbott of a Clan of rugged, street motherfuckers like Rae and Ghost who deal with the uplifting shit here and there (Rae: "while we healing minds, wheelin labs with cathedral ceilings..") but their style is mostly built around the tough shit... and when he tries to fill a whole album with this positive energy and keep the gun-blowing street stuff to a minimum it is certainly goin to upset brothers like Rae..
and that is fully understandable, and I now see exactly why Rae came out like that...


but i officially side with Rza now..and i think the album is going to be not only dope musically (sounds as if so, from what we've heard) but it's gonna be on some deep shit as well..and i commend Rza for stickin to his guns, he knew he was gonna be taking some flack for this once they heard the full album but this is what it's gotta be. They're grown men, and as they've crossed from 36 to Forever and now to here, alot of the street shit has sort of filtered away and what has stuck is the WISDOM..

but that is, without a doubt, the essence and foundation of the Wu-Tang Clan...i was drawn to them as a youngster by the hard beats and murderous lyrics, but what has kept me drawn to them stronger than ever, 10 years later (!!!) is the
Wisdom of the Universe...

and that's what i think Rza is bringing to us on this album..

[TSA]

preach

[Dr Zayus]

I'm just gonna post what I posted on SOHH

See, here's the problem with Wu-Tang now and RZA makes it pretty clear in the interview - everyone has their own opinions. These guys haven't grown musically in the same direction at all, and everyone's been doing their own sh!t for years now. Which (imo) is the reason for Iron Flag sounding so much like a solo showcase - Chrome Wheels was left over from Digital Bullet, Radioactive was from Masta Killa's solo sessions and most of the other songs were from other solo projects/b-sides from The W that were just finished for Iron Flag. I like the album but it's easily their weakest because of the way it was made. That means that Wu-Tang haven't really made a group album since 2000 and in that time RZA's helmed about 6-7 projects, Rae has done a couple, Deck has done a couple, Masta Killa finally came out with his sh!t and Ghostface has made 4 albums and a group album with Theodore.

The problem is when they come back together for an album there's the question of who the leader is - who's gonna decide which way the album goes, they all consider the Clan 'theirs' so I don't think they'd take too kindly to RZA really putting his vision in there like that. The real problem with this logic is that RZA is the one who called the Clan back together to get involved. Rae and Ghost obviously didn't want to do the album at this stage but RZA thought it was time. That's a basis for all kinds of disagreements over bullsh!t and they're not willing to listen to RZA when he says 'trust me' anymore.

edit - Just to expand on it all a bit, they probably think RZA is imprinting his own sound on the record which to me couldn't be further from the truth. RZA has his own 'solo' sound (Digital and some of his joints on BOAP) and if anything he's just expanding the core Wu-Tang sound, which is his sound anyway - it just seems like he's gone back to that sound and is expanding upon it, kind of like his solo albums never happened. If that makes sense.

As for what you said, I kind of agree. Kind of. I think you may be reading too much into the whole thing but it's true that RZA has had a mad Beastie Boys style mental expansion.

[TSA]

preach

[Jasperz]

i agree (with the thread-starter)

[FasterBlade]

good post

while i think the spirit of the music will remain, eventually you have to move forward. they arent in the same financial or personal sitations they were in as younger people, so you have to adjust.

me personally, i couldnt be happier with the direction the albums going in. its raw, but its different. from the looks of certain comments i see here and there, it looks like they outgrew some fans as well. thats bound to happen over 15 years unless you just keep making the same record over and over instead of trying to progress

[the silencer]

Zayus i'm with u on that post especially this:

The problem is when they come back together for an album there's the question of who the leader is - who's gonna decide which way the album goes, they all consider the Clan 'theirs' so I don't think they'd take too kindly to RZA really putting his vision in there like that. The real problem with this logic is that RZA is the one who called the Clan back together to get involved. Rae and Ghost obviously didn't want to do the album at this stage but RZA thought it was time. That's a basis for all kinds of disagreements over bullsh!t and they're not willing to listen to RZA when he says 'trust me' anymore.

you're spot on...

Rza kept on emphasizing exactly what u said in the Wake Up Show interview...

and i was honestly gettin like a real powerful feeling from Rza when i heard him talkin about it man he was gettin all passionate and animated about it and he SHOULD be. This is the man that started this whole thing, brought it all the way up to the top, made the W the worldwide-known symbol it is today and gave birth to a million diff other sounds, producers, emcees in the process..

and he's gotta come on the radio and promote a new album which he put alot of thought into to try and come back and wake this world (and this hip hop culture) up with and he was speaking strongly about it..

much respect to the Abbott (http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/sho...ht=respect+rza)
right now cuz i feel like he's carrying the humungous iron Wu symbol on his back, up a steep cold mountain in the heavy rain while some of his Clansmen aren't with him but they'll be followin once we all bug out over this album...

i gotta make this point again: was never a big Rae fan, and IMO he's been the dopest on every song i've heard so far from 8D

[pep]

i said it 1st

[the silencer]

i said it 1st

respect man..
http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45020
http://www.wutang-corp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44841

i'm with u...it just really took me until hearin the Abbott come out and speak the golden words to really get it...so i had to make a whole long-winded post about it

[Warcloud Ish]

i agree with the thread starter...fuckin hyped for 8 diagrams

[TSA]

don't get fooled though, Rza can be a douche, he just words himself better then the rest.


direction wise this album is on point, business wise, there's my proof.

[DUMBO]

why?
rza never seemed liked the type to say every new album is the best album.

[Dr Zayus]

hearing the intro and first minute or so of the first track gave me a lot more confidence in the album. and i agree that rza has more than enough talent to realize his vision, whatever that may be. but the comment that has me most worried wasn't the rza being a "hip-hop hippie," but rae saying that the album is "rushed" because that's the one thing an album 6 years in the making should never be. that and ghost saying they were "disgusted" with the final product and that the clan wanted some beats to be changed.

before anyone pops off about how all the tracks so far ahve been fire, for all we know, rae and ghost and the rest could be totally fine with the beats we've heard but want some of the other shit changed.

also i wanna point out that when the interviewer asked rza if this was the best wu-tang album he said "no, but it's on time."

that worries me...

You've twisted his words, man

RZA: I won't say it's the best, y'nah'mean? But I say that it's on time, y'nah'mean? For the timing that we're going through in this world, yo, it's good to hear Wu-Tang and hear the vibe that we in... I hate to say it like this, because I don't wanna take the credit... But even the vibe that I'm in. I think the vibe that the RZA is in is a good, healthy vibe for Hip-Hop and healthy for America.

He's not gonna say whether it's the best or not. That's not for him to decide, thats what the public has to do. And when we hear it we're gonna take into account the context of music at this present time and compare it to what we hear on the album.

I try not to pay attention to what musicians think of their own music after the fact. I've made songs I loved at first and now hate too, and most musicians will tell you the same. It's kind of embarrassing to hear your own work when you know you could do so much better. I'll use a classic example for you and say that The Beatles generally hated their group albums. Lennon thought that his songs on The White Album and Sgt. Peppers were pretentious as all hell, but they're some of the best songs ever written.

[Dr Zayus]

i didn't twist shit that's exactly what he said: he didn't think it was the best wu-tang album but he noted that it's coming out "on time."

and regardless what exactly he meant there, i don't understand why this album can't be pushed back to address the clan's concerns. he's pushed back the release date on us how many times now? but now he won't push it back one more time because the world needs his vision of hip-hop december 11th? please...

You've misrepresented everything he said. On time is a term relative to the world of today, not december 11th specifically.

And show me where he said exactly "NO, THIS WU-TANG ALBUM IS NOT TEH BEST WU-TANG ALBUM EVAR". What he actually said is more than open to interpretation. Your interpretation is childish as shit as you've just twisted his words to serve your own argument

[the silencer]

i honestly just see Rae's whole thing now as more of like "wtf is all this shit? we're gonna seem like pussies to the rest of the rap game! we're trying to smash these niggaz, we rule the east!!" and all that business...which is likely to happen..not that their coming up and lookin for any rap beef, but it wouldn't be too hard for these ignorant "hard" rappers try to diss Wu for coming soft and putting on Buddhist sutras on their album...

i think all the other shit Rae said (its disgusting, its rushed, not what we're trying to give after 6 years) is bullshit trying to stir everybody up so he can get his real agenda across, which is to not have a Wu album sounding all pussy and soft..

that's just how i feel...


Humanface Huggah:
besides the semantics with the "on time" stuff (i'm against u on that), its certainly possible that Rae/Ghost didn't have problems with the songs that we've been able to hear but may have hated some other as-yet-unheard ones..

i dono tho...and i'm really just puttin all my trust in Rza now after hearin him speak about the album because ur right he didn't come with the usual "it's the best Wu album ever" and phony it up, he sounded real sincere..

as far as the "you don't even gotta go to summerschool" thing..first off, i still feel Wu-Forever has alotta deep shit in there..they may not be saying things flat out like teaching kids algebra and stuff, but there's enough dope shit on there to make you THINK and use your BRAIN about what they were saying and meaning..

AND also with regards to that, we know Rza was gonna call like every Wu album "8 Diagrams" but never did...maybe now that he's finally droppin the 8 Diagrams, this will be the time where he steps on the promise of "it's another 36 Chambers" and all that type of shit..