2 timothy 3:14-16
4 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Christianity = White Supremacy
horrible comparison. Moses led people to safety. The people who punished Jesus were hurtful. You think those people who punished Jesus were God's instruments instead of instruments of the devil??? So you believe it was God's will to punish Jesus through their hands?? Wow. Is this your selling point for Christianity?Originally Posted by THE W
But according to what you said earlier, he did for people's sins, so everybody, including Hitler, should be saved. EVERYBODY!!!
You actually take the bible to be the uncorrupted truth after being translated (and mistranslated) to language after language resulting in changes of meaning, with some books being deleted and some parts even being intentionally changed by political forces? This is a house built on shaky foundation!!!
Well, given what you said about God being Jesus, he should be praying to his self. This whole trinity is inconsistent and illogical.
Since he is not praying to self, then that means he is not God.
But according to you, he is the father, so the implication is that he is sitting at the right side of self, if I am to believe you earlier statement.
Since you believe it is silly for Jesus (whom you've spelt with lower case 'J' lol) to say he would sit beside himself, it should be silly that Jesus is God, which he is not!
This contradicts your trinity were you said God = Jesus. Logically inconsistent.
That's not the point. Ask yourself, is your trinity logically consistent. If it is not, reject it. If you accept this logical inconsistency, then know that this life is not the end.
the devil didnt decree jesus to be crucified for the sins of mankind, God the father did. but of course the devil participated. the point is this was all planned. everyone one else were pawns in the game.horrible comparison. Moses led people to safety. The people who punished Jesus were hurtful. You think those people who punished Jesus were God's instruments instead of instruments of the devil??? So you believe it was God's will to punish Jesus through their hands?? Wow. Is this your selling point for Christianity?
you probably think this is a mean thing for God to do but that based on your world view.
hitler didnt believe in jesus or follow him, so no.But according to what you said earlier, he did for people's sins, so everybody, including Hitler, should be saved. EVERYBODY!!!
ok, show me the books that were excluded from the bible AND how they contradict the testimony of the books that are included.You actually take the bible to be the uncorrupted truth after being translated (and mistranslated) to language after language resulting in changes of meaning, with some books being deleted and some parts even being intentionally changed by political forces? This is a house built on shaky foundation!!!
also show me what the inocorrect translations are from the texts i referenced.
your other statements are about the bible's testimony of the trinity i'll answer in the order you made them.
1. nope, i said god is one BEING comprised of 3 PERSONS. the father, the son, and the holy spirit all make up that one being which is God. god the son praying to god the father for the father to glorify the son with the glory he had before taking on sinful flesh.
2. nope, i didnt say jesus was the father. they 2 different persons comprising the same being of God. if you dont believe jesus is God just as much as the father is God then you simply reject biblical testimony. if thats what you want to do..
3. not at all. the father has the greatest authority of the 3 persons but he chooses to give everything he has to the son because the son is perfectly obedient to the father and glorifies the father in all he does. so the father gives him everything.
4. its only logically inconsistant if you reject biblical testimony. its laid out clearly in scripture. the question is whether you except it or not.
furthermore, why exactly do you think it impossible for god, the all powerful creator, to be one being comprised of 3 persons?
are you a unitarian?
Christianity = White Supremacy
something i want to expand upon further,
when Jesus who is God, along with the father who is God, came into creation as a human being through being birthed through mary, he took upon himself humanity.
he experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, physical pain, and he also did what humans do to communicate with God, he prayed. jesus praying in john 17 is a display of the humanity that he was taking part in.
Christianity = White Supremacy
It is a historical fact that the teachings of early 'christianity' has gone through many changes. I should not have to prove it to you because you should also know this fact. It should also be common sense that if words from one language is changed into another language and many other languages, many of its' meanings would be lost. There is again no need to prove it. It is a logical fact.
Once again, you've made a logical error. One is not comprised of 3. 1+1+1 cannot equal 1 in the mathematics I've learned. Who taught you math?
Another logical error.
I've already explained that it makes no sense.
Well.....
Jesus Arrested
18 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it.
2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
The Death of Jesus
28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath.
The Empty Tomb
20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...ersion=NIV1984
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...ersion=NIV1984
1) When Jesus was arrested, they were carrying torches and lanterns. This must mean that they arrested him in the evening.
2) After he died, it is said that the next day is the sabbath, which is Saturday, meaning Jesus was arrested Friday evening.
3) Early in the first day of the week, in the morning, which is Sunday, Jesus is gone and the tomb is uncovered, implying the resurrection.
Now let's do the math:
Friday evening to Saturday evening is 1 day.
Saturday evening to Sunday morning is half a day.
That makes the death to resurrection 1 and a half day, not 3!!!!!
Now if you are to include the appearance of Jesus to the disciples, then Jesus appeared to them in the evening.
Math:
Friday evening to Saturday evening is 1 day.
Saturday evening to Sunday evening is 1 day.
That makes the death to resurrection 2 days!!! It is still not 3!!!!!
Your Christian belief is a house built on sand. My arguments knock it down!!!!!!
ok i respect ur beliefs w but im going to make some points of mine i want to express
1 jesus dying for peoples sins
this is the conclusion that the early disciples came to. but theres only one time jesus himself makes any reference to his death as a sacrifice (and even this questionable) when he said the bread was his body. and even if it was a sacrifice it could be a sacrifice 4 anything.
jesus also went around simply forgiving sins with a few words before numerous times in the bible and they were forgiven so why did he have to sacrifice himself instead of just forgiving them with a few words.
jesus also didnt follow the law of moses before such as when he healed on the sabbath. so why suddenly follow the sacrificial laws. jesus also said when the pharisees complained about jesus not following the laws that they should learn what the scriptures mean by "i prefer mercy not sacrifice". so then why not rather the merciful manner of simply forgiving sins by saying "ur sins are forgiven" instead of the sacrifical method of sacrificing an innocent to forgive sins.
the sacrifice wasnt carried out probably because it has to be carried out in the temple and this isnt the same as destroying the temple itself.
i think jesus wanted to die because because he was convinced he was god and didnt fear death because he thought hed be resurrected, because any extremely tender and introverted person naturally wants to leave the world because they see it as cruel and because jesus was so gentle he couldnt even hit someone back, he could only turn the other cheek so naturally hed let people beat him up and kill him.
2 u shouldnt consult the bible in order to understand morality or how jesus would act because of his morals
its very clumsy with morals and it doesnt make an attempt to understand them.
the abrahamic god is an extremely clumsy construction. the jews tried to make him completely good and in doing so they just added lots of good qualities together even thought most of them cant exist together. a very good example is the omnibenevolent omnipotent paradox.
rather ask yourself the question why is it necessary for a christian to believe that omnibenevolence and omnipotence can exist together?
also look at this
"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
its very clumsily put together. love is a strong emotion of personal attatchment so how is it not easily angered. jesus himself got extremely angry because of the injustice in his father's temple. he even exclaims "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!". did jesus not get into this frenzy because of his personal attatchment to his father, because of his love.
so instead why was it necessary for the people paul was speaking to to believe that love is not easily angered
3 the bible doesnt approach life from a historical perspective
its made ahistorically with a fondness of metaphor. jesus was completely introverted. he lived in the kingdom of heaven which is completely seperated from the objective world. so he didnt look at history properly. he saw all history and the objective world as symbols and allegories. everything in the torah was just a symbol 4 him.
he went too far with metaphors sometimes and tried to see symbols in anything. jesus said hed rise on the third day but in matthew he says he'll spent 3 days and nights in the land of the dead just like jonah in the whale.
the bible actually contradicts that jesus was dead for 3 days and nights. but on the other hand matthew could be misquotin jesus.
also none of the new testament found came b4 the 2 century ad. the oldest manuscript they found is from 125 ad. and they could vary from the original.
http://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/s...nuscripts.html
4 what is belief in jesus
kant said we dont know things in themselves but we only know how they appear to us.
so jesus appears as a different person to each person. we each look at him as a different person. even one person himself will think of him differently at different parts of his life. so then u can basicly make the argument that no one truly believes in the real jesus because no one fully understands what hes really like.
now schopenhauer actually disagreed with kant and said we can experience things in themselves eg our body. when we lift our own arm we experience it as a thing in itself. it isnt the same as watching someone else lift their own arm.
so in order to truly belief in jesus we have to know him as a thing in itself. but is this not more an experiencine than a belief. this experience is the kingdom of god. this experience is the will of jesus. the experience of being a child of god wandering with no real home and loving in a gentle manner.
christianity is therefore not a belief but an experience.
this was pauls greatest mistake. he didnt really know what type of believe it was.
jesus himself only looked at what things meant. he saw the world as a symbol. so believing jesus was a historical figure doesnt really matter.
Last edited by cj wisty; 11-23-2012 at 04:14 PM.
NON-IGS
The W, your 3 day death/resurrection is NOT based on Jesus, but it is based on THE SUN!!! Your Christianity is infiltrated with pagan beliefs!!!!!!!!!!!!
alright i will deal with FMJ first and then with rakim. im not gonna respond to the quotes in the post but the points being made in the post.
it is a fact that the bible has gone through changes
i fully acknowledge this fact,
what i am asking you to do is point out what those changes are and how they contradict the biblical testimony we have.
i also know there are books in the bible that have been omitted. what im asking you to do is tell me what books those are and how they contradict the testimony of the books we have.
ok?
the trinity, being that one God is comprised of 3 persons, is illogical
john 10:24-39
"the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”"
john 14:6-11
" Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"
3 eternally communal persons equally sharing the same essence of God with the father having the highest authority and choosing to give authority to his son is illogical? if you say so.
just understand that the bible testifies to this. if you want to reject biblical testimony thats on you.
the bible does not testify to jesus being dead 3 days.
this is a good one and while i can look at the scriptures myself and resolve the "rise again on the third day" issue, "the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" requires a understanding of jewish customs that i dont have.
here's a link that resolves this issue
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/holi...night-mystery/
remember that jesus was a jew
so it seems there were two sabbaths. the special sabbath which was the feast of unleavened bread and the regular weekly sabbath. this would put chirst's death on thursday afternoon. he died and was buried on preparation day, which all 4 gospels testify to.
you might say the term "special sabbath" is only mentioned in the gospel of john. well, "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" is only quoted in the gospel of matthew.
Christianity = White Supremacy
i posted a zietgeist refuted video that speaks on this issue.
here it is
Last edited by THE W; 11-23-2012 at 11:26 PM.
Christianity = White Supremacy
i'll respond to the first point on jesus' death for the forgiveness of sin
he doesnt have to repeat something 50 times for it be truth. when he says that his blood is the new covenant poured out for you it cant mean anything else but crucifixion added on top that him saying my body given for you.
you should check out the link i provided for FMJ on the 3 days 3nights thing. it explains this a whole lot better than i do.
jesus dying on the cross for our sins has been fortold since the old testament books.
thinking this shouldnt have happened because its cruel or unnecessary is to oppose the sovereignty of God the father.
as far as your other points and on the point above as well, they're all base on your personal world view. you can have that view if you wish and trying to change it was never in any way my intention.
i dont try to inject my world view into the scriptures. i only do exgesis as this is the only way scripture is to be understood. none of the views you present are in conjunction with sound exegesis of scriptural testimony and i dont think care for them to be as you seek to put God and his word under your judgement.
with that understanding there's isnt really anything left for us to discuss. CHRISTianity isnt for you.
Christianity = White Supremacy
http://www.youtube.com/user/ancienth...e=results_main
Just cuz the bible says this, does not mean you should accept it even if it does not make sense.
Previous to Jesus being arrested and crucified and dying, he was having a feast with others, which means all of this must have taken place in the evening not the morning. You say Jesus died on Thursday? In order for that to happen, Jesus would have had to die on Thursday morning before dawn with the feast with others occurring in the dark of the night while most people would be asleep. People do not have feasts while others are sleeping. I'm pretty sure that your fellow Christians, that if you ask them if Jesus was having a feast with his followers and was arrested and hanged before dawn would disagree with you. It had to be the evening, which would make your 3 days and 3 nights not add up either way!!!!Jesus Arrested
18 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it.
2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
You say he died in the afternoon? That still would not make 3 days 3 nights. He would have had to still be in his tomb right before Sunday afternoon for this to be true, but it was still dark on Sunday morning before it was discovered that his body was missing from the tomb.
Also, the link you gave said he died at 3pm. Which means he would have to still be in his tomb when the woman went to check it on Sunday morning, but his body was not there!!! You can't count his death starting from sunrise when his death was in the afternoon!!!. You must start counting at 3pm.
Last edited by diggy; 11-24-2012 at 06:40 PM.
here's something the article i posted caught that i didnt see.
luke 24:1-24
this pretty much proves that jesus died on thursday. these events took place on sunday and these men said the crucifixion took place 3 days ago.
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
The Resurrection
24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8 Then they remembered his words.
9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.
On the Road to Emmaus
13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
3 days ago from sunday - saturday, friday, thursday
so we're donna go through this. another thing that needs to be noted is a new jewish day begins at sundown, not midnight.
starting from 3pm
jesus dies in daytime thursday - day 1
sundown for friday, the special sabbath begins - night 1
sun rises for daytime friday - day 2
sundown for saturday, the weekly sabbath begins - night 2
sun rises for daytime saturday - day 3
sundown and we go into sunday - night 3
lukes states that the women were on their way to the tomb early in the morning. john says it was still dark, mark says just after sunrise, matthew says it was at dawn.
all 4 gospels testify to the women getting there and seeing the stone removed and evntually finding jesus' body gone.
Last edited by THE W; 11-24-2012 at 08:29 PM.
Christianity = White Supremacy
rise again on the 3rd day:
crucified thursday
dead friday - day 1
dead saturday - day 2
rises sunday - day 3
Christianity = White Supremacy
Ok. Looks like I cannot go against the 3 day 3 nights successfully, but I have still proved your trinity to be illogical. Logically, a father and son cannot be the same person, therefore your trinity is false.
you think voltron is illogical?
Christianity = White Supremacy
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