Communism vs. Capitalism

[Sense-A]

I notice there are lots of commies in this forum. So lets battle it out. I'm a firm believer in capitalism.

In economics, laissez-faire (English pronunciation: /ˌlɛseɪˈfɛər/ ( listen), French: [lɛsefɛʁ] ( listen)) means allowing industry to be free from state intervention, especially restrictions in the form of tariffs and government monopolies.
The phrase is French and literally means "let do", but it broadly implies "let it be", or "leave it alone."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

Laissez-faire capitalism is capitalism in its pure form. Unleashed. However, in America, we have regulations often governed by bureaucratic agencies such as the FDA, EPA, OSHA, ESA, FIDC, IRS, ATF, that maintain a level of acceptable conditions in our health products, our food, our environment, our employment, etc.

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned; supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are determined mainly by private decisions and market forces rather than through a planned economy; and profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses.

Okay we'll use this definition for now. I don't believe that everyone is entitled to everything. The American Constitution states that:

The United States Declaration of Independence, which was primarily drafted by Jefferson, was adopted by the Second Continental Congress on July 4, 1776. The text of the second section of the Declaration of Independence reads:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

There you go spoiled brat. You are entitled to the PURSUIT of happiness. That means you have the right to EARN what you want. Communists want entitlements and are often under the false assumption that common ownership of property means that everyone gets a free house and a free car and free luxuries.


Capitalism is incentive based. If you want to make money, there is a free market that you are allowed to participate in. It is regulated with licenses and registration processes (bureaucracy). Entering the market requires start-up capital. Start-up capital is easily available from lenders/investors/banks once the borrower has built a good reputation for honoring loans/credit. Going into business requires risk, and with high risk comes high reward. We also have the opportunity to share ownership in our companies via the corporate system in which one can easily buy a share ownership in a corporation online for $5 plus the share price of the stock. Pretty cool system.


Communism. You have no private property. You are not allowed to go on strike or freely move from one occupation to another. There is no incentive to work harder because everyone is distributed the same ration anyways. The standard of living is poor for everyone. People often lose their individual rights as well. For example you are not allowed to have opposing political views from the communists in power and you are often not allowed to practice any religion. Electricity and water is often turned off during the night or during off hours to conserve resources for a huge monstrous bureaucratic system. Bureaucracy is infamous for being inefficient.


What examples of communism do we have?


China is fairly communist. Cuba. North Korea. Vietnam. Many eastern Europe countries suffered the wrath of Soviet Union communism such as: Romania, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, czech republican, Germany.


Communists often refer to capitalism as "crony capitalism" or "evil Capitalists" or "capitalist pigs". This is because of their jealousy that others were more innovative, willing to take the chance at risking a capital investment and leveraging themselves, and become successful as an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurship to me is an action that deserves rewards. Laziness, lack of skills, and unreliability and disloyalty should not reward you. Despite this, here in capitalist America we supply the poor lazy unemployed workers with no skills welfare in the form of free housing, free food, free electricity, free water, free education, free clothing, free library cards, you name it. So the poor in this country are NOT abandoned. There are countless not-for-profit organizations within our country that get a free pass on taxes so that they can outreach via community programs and support such as Red Cross, Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc. etc. there are so many of them.


The fact is that even the most poor in America have a higher standard of living than the hardest working and most skilled in a Communist Country.


To the Communists on this forum. I challenge you to name one Communist country in the history of the world that we can analyze for its prosperity and success as a communist country. I will simply argue how the system of communism ultimately failed far faster than a comparable capitalist system fails.


I also presume that every communist on this forum is currently living in a CAPITALIST country. That is the utter irony. So you are glorifying a system that you know little about (just looking from the outside in) and you are hating a system that provides you with all the luxuries that you currently have.


Also you are welcome to boast communist leaders. Lenin, Stalin, Castro, etc. Hell we can examine what Karl Marx's vision really was. Build. Convince me that communism is better than Capitalism, because right now I feel convinced that capitalism has had a net positive effect for mankind and has catalyzed the advancements in technology and created conditions that have allowed for such a population explosion. I'm not arguing that capitalism is perfect. But there is no better system.

[Drunken Monk]

nowadays theres no difference between both

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

How is there no difference?

Communism is beneficently evil and Capitalism is ruthlessly good. Yin and Yang.

[theheavens]

How is there no difference?

Communism is beneficently evil and Capitalism is ruthlessly good. Yin and Yang.

cracker

[Drunken Monk]

comunism at 2010 = capitalism

[Sense-A]

I get what the monk is saying. Neither one exists in its pure form. Communism now has many facets of capitalism woven into it and capitalist countries have some features of communism.

For example, China and Vietnam are embracing many free market ideas in the last couple decades.

Things to consider:

Ownership
Distribution
Production
Individual and private rights
standards of living
economic prosperity
economic freedom

Another important part of Our system of capitalism is our progressive tax system in which the richer people are required to pay a higher tax than lower income people. This is also a form of social welfare. If we were completely democratic, you would expect each man to make an equal contribution to the government's budget. However I have my own gripes about our tax system so I won't run off on that tangent.

Marxist Communist Manifesto: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...esto/index.htm

one thing i meant to discuss is the difference between socialism and communism. My understanding is that socialism is state ownership of all property whereas communism is public ownership of all property. Both require a ruling elite (government) to decide how that property is redistributed so that is where some of the confusion takes place. One thing i notice is that if you do a web search, you get all kinds of different interpretations and spin on what communism and socialism really are. There is a lot of bias to be weary of.

Socialism is an economic and political theory based on public ownership or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources.[1][2][3]
In a socialist economic system, production is carried out by a public association of producers to directly produce use-values (instead of exchange-values), through coordinated planning of investment decisions, distribution of surplus, and the use of the means of production. Socialism is a set of social and economic arrangements based on a post-monetary system of calculation, such as labor time or energy units.[4]
Socialists advocate a method of compensation based on individual merit or the amount of labor one contributes to society.[5] They generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. They argue that this creates an unequal society that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential,[6] and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential in the interests of the public.[7] Socialists characterize full socialism as a society no longer based on coercive wage-labor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Within communism you have leninism, stalinism, marxism, etc. I admit that I myself do not know all the differences that distinguish one from the other. Maybe someone can explain or post a reputable source?

[Uncle Steezo]

capitalism denigrates humanity and the quality of life of all humans in the pursuit of profit.

capitalism is based on the idea that one is entitled to land and resources that were not earned. the earth belongs to no one. if you can prove otherwise then you win this argument. if not then you must concede that capitalism is a pariah.

[communist cunt]

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[Sense-A]

The worker is not only alienated from other workers and members of her community, but also against the labour process. Whereas the labour process once involved real production with an end commodity, today it is boiled down into a simple, repetitive, mechanical and menial task that no labourer is capable of taking pride in.

In terms of her economic relation to her employer, it is immediately obvious that she does not receive the true value of her labour. Say she constructs a boot at $8hr, spent a haf-hour on it, she receives $4 while the company sells the book for $80. This we as communists view as a criminal robbing of what should be entitled to her.

No. Because in capitalism, I put on a modest capital investment to startup my own printing press and print my own books and sell them for $80 if that is what FREE people in the FREE market with THEIR money CHOOSE to pay for it. No one is FORCED to pay $80 for that book. If someone else sells it cheaper, the consumer will go to the competitor. And if the worker wants to make more than $8 she can go work for another book company or else take her knowledge of her labor and become an entrepreneur.

There has never in the history of the world EVER existed a communist country in which the citizens and populace in general enjoyed a higher standard of living than what is commonly afforded in Capitalist America. You guys having been DREAMING since the communist manifesto. Philosophy, ideas, textbooks mumbo jumbo. But as soon as you try to put communism to work in REAL LIFE, it fails every single time and time and time again yet you guys still praise and worship failed communist dictators and hail and salute fallen communist governments that suffered a HUGE EXODUS of the population to FLEE from the conditions of communism. People RUN AWAY AND LEAVE COMMUNIST COUNTRIES! THEY ESCAPE!!

Yet the very communists that live here in America have no desire or motivation to leave because, well, capitalism is working out pretty fucking good for them. Communists in America bitch about how terrible and oppressive and evil capitalism is while they're counting their money in their McMansions. It's hilarious.

Marxism consists of a million truths, but they all boil down to one sentence: It is right to rebel.

All power to the people.

Yeah yeah. I went through my little rebelliousness phase in my life. But then I realized how good I have it and how fortunate I am to live in America. Anyways, capitalism lets me rebel. I can quit a job. I can choose to buy or to not buy any specific product or service from any specific company. Money talks. Boycotts work. Capitalism works. Communism doesn't. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how successfully communism has worked in any specific country in the history of the entire world. Or are we still just idealizing the communist manifesto written by a fat lazy big bearded man who lived most of his life in CAPITALIST London....oh yeah Karl Marx is his name.

And can you please explain how Communists think they can artificially replace the natural forces of supply and demand that exist in a free market? Because government controlling supply and deciding what the demand is doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all. The Soviets didn't do a very good job supplying the essential demand for food in their communist paradise now did they?

[Edgar Erebus]

No. Because in capitalism, I put on a modest capital investment to startup my own printing press and print my own books and sell them for $80 if that is what FREE people in the FREE market with THEIR money CHOOSE to pay for it. No one is FORCED to pay $80 for that book. If someone else sells it cheaper, the consumer will go to the competitor. And if the worker wants to make more than $8 she can go work for another book company or else take her knowledge of her labor and become an entrepreneur.

Yup, no one is forced, but let's be realistic, you don't have a choice. Just yesterday I bought Umberto Eco's "The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana" for 25 euros. Of course that, if I found the same book being sold for 5 euros, I'd buy that book. The only problem is, there isn't any: the publishing company that I bought that book from has exclusive rights on selling that book in my country. Same is with most of other books. Therefore, who dictates the prices?

But all of that is missing the point. The point is: let's say you paid the worker $4 for half a hour of work (that's wage is, btw, so big that I have yet to see anyone getting paid that much), $3 for material of printing and cca. $3 per copy for copyright. That means you still got $70 for that book without having to work for it. You got it exclusively by investing $10 and exploiting the work of your employee. And THAT's the ripoff in that case.

And about becoming an entrepreneur, yeah, theoretically it's possible, but practically it's a whole different story. I know that with my current wage (I work as a tourist guide), 500 euros a month netto, even if I ate only bread and water I wouldn't EVER have enough money to start my own travel agency.

There has never in the history of the world EVER existed a communist country in which the citizens and populace in general enjoyed a higher standard of living than what is commonly afforded in Capitalist America. You guys having been DREAMING since the communist manifesto. Philosophy, ideas, textbooks mumbo jumbo. But as soon as you try to put communism to work in REAL LIFE, it fails every single time and time and time again yet you guys still praise and worship failed communist dictators and hail and salute fallen communist governments that suffered a HUGE EXODUS of the population to FLEE from the conditions of communism. People RUN AWAY AND LEAVE COMMUNIST COUNTRIES! THEY ESCAPE!!

Fun fact is that there's, for example, a whole lot of people in East Germany saying how they miss the communist period. True, they didn't have such a big standard, true, they were under state repression, but if they worked as regular and kept their mouths shut they didn't ever have to worry if they'll have their job the next day.

The thing is, people always think their neighbor's grass is more green.

Yet the very communists that live here in America have no desire or motivation to leave because, well, capitalism is working out pretty fucking good for them. Communists in America bitch about how terrible and oppressive and evil capitalism is while they're counting their money in their McMansions. It's hilarious.

So what should they do, in your opinion?

Yeah yeah. I went through my little rebelliousness phase in my life. But then I realized how good I have it and how fortunate I am to live in America. Anyways, capitalism lets me rebel. I can quit a job.

You can, but you'd be an idiot if you did it unless you are so lucky that your proffession is in demand that particular moment.

I can choose to buy or to not buy any specific product or service from any specific company. Money talks.

In some cases, in some you can't, as I proved in this post.

Boycotts work.

Funny that you said that, because here you have a life example from the construction company my pops works in. Workers there started joining the trade union, which scared the owner shitless, because in that case they could start a strike (he currently hasn't paid them for three months, and they usually work 12-14 hours and get paid for 8 hours of work; strangely enough, while he's doing such stuff and crying how the crisis got him poor, he bought himself a $70 000 car and completely refurnished his mansion).

What he did is that he immediately fired all the workers that joined the trade union and hired new ones, under condition that they don't join any trade union while working for him.

Capitalism works.

Partly: it brings a huge market crash cca. every 40 years.

Communism doesn't.

Partly. Yugoslavia wasn't destroyed by anticommunism and capitalism, but by nationalism.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how successfully communism has worked in any specific country in the history of the entire world.

Yugoslavia in 60's was "booming" in words of Time magazine, while still being a communist country. Don't forget that some capitalist countries have among the first foreign policy priorities curtailing any socialist/communist movements around the world. (Indonesia 1965, Chile 1973, Brazil 1976, Bolivia 1982, Poland 1989, South Africa 1994... the list goes on.)

Or are we still just idealizing the communist manifesto written by a fat lazy big bearded man who lived most of his life in CAPITALIST London....oh yeah Karl Marx is his name.

And where was he supposed to live? Come on, name me one communist country in existence in 1867. (He lived in poverty there, by the way.)

And can you please explain how Communists think they can artificially replace the natural forces of supply and demand that exist in a free market? Because government controlling supply and deciding what the demand is doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all. The Soviets didn't do a very good job supplying the essential demand for food in their communist paradise now did they?

That was that stupid "transitional" phase towards communism (that's why they were all "socialist" republics) that stated that until situation is ripe for completely implementing communism there should exist state capitalism. That, plus the already stated facts that you could become a company director just by being a party member and not by having neccessary qualifications caused that shit to fail.

Yugoslavia noted in 1950 that it doesn't work so they moved to a "workers self-management" principle that was much closer to Marx/Engels/Lenin's ideas and which, as I said, lead Yugoslavia into an economic boom in 60's and late 80's (you had two world oil crises in 70's mind that).

[communist cunt]

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[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

The only way we'll transcend capitalism is to transcend a need based society.

If there was enough value in the world to make everyone rich I'd say go ahead, but if you distribute the money equally across the planet everyone makes about eight thousand dollars a year. That's not a livable wage, because prices will rise to equalize the work.

In the far future we will no longer need because we will produce more then we consume, in this world, we will be able to have a communist state. In that world the only measure of value will be human labor. Until then the world is not ready.

And P2TP you can't throw around House Negro, you're Iranian, that's offensive...

Realistically, your labor doesn't count for shit, the value is in the finished product, the value is what we make of it. No one can tell me how much something is worth. I decide how much it is worth. Capitalism is freedom. They give a price which is what they're willing to accept for it, but it's up to me to decide to buy their product. By having the ability to say no, I control them. Communism dictates prices so that you cannot say no, because they are universal across the state. You'll never find a bargain because everyone is ripping you off equally. Communism is a total monopoly. And I thought that Communists hate capitalist monopolies.

Communism is serfdom. You are a nation enslaved to one another. Your system will never work.

[Sense-A]

I don't understand how you can describe capitalism as "exploitation."

You are not FORCED to work for a business or for an employer. You are free to apply for any business for any position for any employer and NEGOTIATE your compensation and your wage. How are you being exploited, when in a free market, if an employer's work conditions or compensation are unfavorable, you can simply and freely go to a competitor? That is not exploitation at all.

Simply, I can freely go from one employer to a different one. I am not exploited. In matter of fact you can argue that the working class actually exploits the employers because we can quit or strike whenever we want. And in capitalist America, there are labor laws to prevent exploitation. Such as the 40 hour work week which seems perfectly FAIR to me. And minimum wage. Unemployment insurance. Laws prohibiting workplace harassment and discrimination. laws against child labor. Come on now. Who is being exploited? You can choose to not work at all in America and enjoy social welfare checks, public housing, etc. etc. They call this place the "land of opportunity" and in all seriousness there are opportunities everywhere. I have opportunities for employment all around me in America. I have opportunities for scholarships and grants and opportunities for advancement, promotions, bonuses, commissions... I have opportunities to join unions as an apprentice or opportunities to work in the public service sector. Whether or not I actually get off my ass to take advantage of those opportunities is the only question.

Communists are the ones exploiting the populace as a whole. in 1932, Stalin exploited the Ukraine by starving off the entire population because he had communist control (public ownership - yeah right!) of the agricultural output and how it is distributed amongst the people. Then Stalin went around the Soviet Union seizing people's grains and agricultural output. People were starving in the millions. There are documented cases of cannibalism taking place under stalinist russia. Women having sex for food. Here in America, it is practically impossible to starve. People don't even eat everything on their plates. We are gorged with food. Look at all the obese Americans. Our capitalist free market keeps food affordable, and keeps agriculture profitable for farmers. Not only this, but our free market capitalism has given our citizens the incentives and motivation to develop more efficient methods of producing more output with less inputs. Maximizing efficiency and reducing waste have increased profitability while the competitive market helps beat down prices. Brilliant.

[Edgar Erebus]

(Introductiory explanation: I used to be, but I'm not a communist anymore.)

Let's start with this.

I don't understand how you can describe capitalism as "exploitation."

Precisely the way PowerToThePeople said. You make, let's say, $70 profit for your employer and you only get $5 for it. That sir, is exploitation of human labor.

You are not FORCED to work for a business or for an employer. You are free to apply for any business for any position for any employer and NEGOTIATE your compensation and your wage. How are you being exploited, when in a free market, if an employer's work conditions or compensation are unfavorable, you can simply and freely go to a competitor? That is not exploitation at all.

First of all, that negotiation is far from equal terms. If you ask too much, they'll just basically say "No thanks" and won't lose anything, 'cause soon there's gonna appear another guy with same qualifications who wants a smaller wage. That free negotiation is, actually, better for the employer, as a worker is forced to constantly cut his own demands.

Theoretically yes, you can freely go from one employer to a different one. But you would be crazy if you did that, because you'd be forced to cut your wage down again.

Simply, I can freely go from one employer to a different one. I am not exploited. In matter of fact you can argue that the working class actually exploits the employers because we can quit or strike whenever we want. And in capitalist America, there are labor laws to prevent exploitation. Such as the 40 hour work week which seems perfectly FAIR to me. And minimum wage. Unemployment insurance. Laws prohibiting workplace harassment and discrimination. laws against child labor. Come on now. Who is being exploited?

You can't quit or strike whenever you want, first thing first. There are requirements a trade union needs to meet if they want to pronounce a strike. And if you strike privately, that's more like being AWOL from a job - instant pink slip.

And let's not forget that proponents of laissez-faire are all against labor laws. A capitalism which has labor laws already isn't laissez-faire, but is tempered with socialism (which is essentially a reformistic, instead of revolutionary, variant of communism).

You can choose to not work at all in America and enjoy social welfare checks, public housing, etc. etc. They call this place the "land of opportunity" and in all seriousness there are opportunities everywhere. I have opportunities for employment all around me in America. I have opportunities for scholarships and grants and opportunities for advancement, promotions, bonuses, commissions... I have opportunities to join unions as an apprentice or opportunities to work in the public service sector. Whether or not I actually get off my ass to take advantage of those opportunities is the only question.

True. Don't forget you got a lot of those opportunities because of socialism.

Communists are the ones exploiting the populace as a whole. in 1932, Stalin exploited the Ukraine by starving off the entire population because he had communist control (public ownership - yeah right!) of the agricultural output and how it is distributed amongst the people. Then Stalin went around the Soviet Union seizing people's grains and agricultural output. People were starving in the millions. There are documented cases of cannibalism taking place under stalinist russia. Women having sex for food.

Just don't mention Stalin, ever since 1956 there is literally nobody among commies who think of Stalin as an idol. Soviet Union under Stalin wasn't even a socialist state, it was more like, as Trotsky said, "degenerate worker's state", with emphasis on degenerate.

Here in America, it is practically impossible to starve. People don't even eat everything on their plates. We are gorged with food. Look at all the obese Americans. Our capitalist free market keeps food affordable, and keeps agriculture profitable for farmers.

It's easy to be a farmer in 2010, when they make for less than 3% of total population. Try to say the same in 1932.

Not only this, but our free market capitalism has given our citizens the incentives and motivation to develop more efficient methods of producing more output with less inputs. Maximizing efficiency and reducing waste have increased profitability while the competitive market helps beat down prices. Brilliant.

The failure of socialist states to do that has more to do with their crucial mistake, and that was putting people on leading positions based on their moral-political suitability, instead of professional qualifications. As I said, that was the essential mistake and probably caused the end of state socialism in Europe in 1989.

Will continue later on.

[communist cunt]

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