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Thread: Communism vs. Capitalism

  1. #31
    Gen Chat Bully Uncle Steezo's Avatar
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    greed is not naturally part of human nature.
    we live in a world of abundance. why would there be greed in world like that?
    greed was created by cutting humanity off from this abundance.
    greed is fear. fear of running out. fear of being powerless.
    when you stop feeding fear, fear dies.

  2. #32
    The People's Champ Visionz's Avatar
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    I get tired of hearing about EVIL corporate America. What about all the millions and millions of Americans who have jobs thanks to these corporations? Or the millions of Americans who receive dividends from the stocks that they own in these American corporations. You do realize that CORPORATIONS are owned by AMERICAN CITIZENS right? WE own the corporations. Also, these corporations provide billions and billions of dollars worth of products and services that we willingly consume. If you don't like Corporations, don't buy their products!!! If you don't like banks, withdraw your money! Go deposit your money somewhere else!! Banks can't make loans without your deposit money!!! I mean really, this isn't rocket science. Use the free market to your advantage.
    You're kidding yourself if you think 5 shares of microsoft makes you Bill Gates, as an example. Unless you're a majority shareholder of an entity, you're just along for the ride, you're not making executive decisions and you're not in the say-so of lobbyist and what agendas make their way into law.

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  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visionz View Post
    why are you mentioning communism? As a system its retarded and on that we are in agreement but it seems we've reached a point in history where we're comfortable enough because of the house, the car, the running water etc that as a whole we no longer have a vested interest in moving things forward. I'm focused on progress of all humans everywhere, my ideologies aren't concerned with myself as me personally I'm doing fairly good but I know that's not the case for everyone and as long as that's the case than I can never be satisfied.

    But let's just start with this, what are some corporations that you don't buy from because you don't like them?
    Corporations pay 15% of our tax revenue in this country. Considering that taxes on corporations are really just double taxation because the shareholders have to pay capital gains on the stock, consider this 15% a blessing. About half of all Americans don't pay any federal income tax anyways, so why complain how the government budget is spent if you didn't contribute a dime in federal income taxes?

    Some companies i personally refuse to spend my money at are Bank of America, Blockbuster, hell...practically any company that makes political contributions to the Demoncratic Party. hahaha. But seriously, some of the commies in this forum probably spend more money on Corporate products and services than i do, and they are the ones that consider corporations evil. Yet they still willingly spend the dinero.

    And Wunded Fox: Okay then how are we going to solve greed? Should we say that once you earn a million dollars, all the extra amount gets taken away from you? I mean really what do you want to do? Erase all the rich people on the planet? Steal rich people's money and throw it out of helicopters? Very few people are lucky enough to get rich and for some of them it wasn't all about luck, it was years of hard work, great ideas, and well-managed risks. My whole point in the previous post was to say that Greed is not something that is a direct result of capitalism.

    Even communists are greedy. You may try to argue that if everyone had the same, no one would want more. This has been proven to be a fallacy time and time again. If there are no goals to achieve and nothing to work toward except a production quota, where is the incentive to excel?
    Capitalism just functions better in the face of human greed than other systems do, as it offers the proverbial carrot of financial wealth in return for hard work. A greedy salesman can not sell you something unless you are WILLING to buy. So greedy businessmen are selling a product or service for a price that is in HIGH DEMAND in a free market. That is not corrupt, that is fair. Nobody forces you to consume consume consume all the corporate products and services available. Damnit man, buy local if it bothers your that much. if you hate walmart so much, why do you still shop there? If you hate bank of america for receiving bailout money, why do you still deposit your money there? If you hate nike because they use sweatshop labor, why do you still cop the air jordans? If you hate BP for spilling oil in the gulf, why do you still buy gasoline and a pack of blunts at the local BP gas station?

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visionz View Post
    You're kidding yourself if you think 5 shares of microsoft makes you Bill Gates, as an example. Unless you're a majority shareholder of an entity, you're just along for the ride, you're not making executive decisions and you're not in the say-so of lobbyist and what agendas make their way into law.
    Then vote for a candidate that does not accept campaign donations from lobbying corporations. did you vote in your state's primaries the last couple weeks? If you didn't, you missed out on a great opportunity to decide what your options are going to be in November.

    Our government system is actually setup quite well. The problem is that most people don't even take advantage of it and participate. Everyone has this piss poor attitude that their vote doesn't count and their money doesn't count and their voice doesn't count so they don't even participate. And 250 million other Americans have the same piss poor attitude so the 40 or 50% of the population who actually DO vote get to determine who gets in office.

    Alvin Green was just elected as the Demoncratic candidate for senate in South Carolina. All the guy did was pay $10k to register with the Demoncratic party. He ran no campaign at all and spent NO money on his campaign an accepted NO money from any corporation. He is a 32 year old unemployed poor black man that got kicked out of the military and is currently facing a felony charge. And the guy is the Demoncratic candidate for senate!!! This should be an example of a nobody getting a chance to become one of only 100 senators in the entire country. http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/...ex.html?hpt=T2
    Last edited by Sense-A; 06-16-2010 at 11:57 PM.

  5. #35
    The People's Champ Visionz's Avatar
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    Corporations pay 15% of our tax revenue in this country. Considering that taxes on corporations are really just double taxation because the shareholders have to pay capital gains on the stock, consider this 15% a blessing. About half of all Americans don't pay any federal income tax anyways, so why complain how the government budget is spent if you didn't contribute a dime in federal income taxes?

    Some companies i personally refuse to spend my money at are Bank of America, Blockbuster, hell...practically any company that makes political contributions to the Demoncratic Party. hahaha
    You're assuming all companies are publicly traded which just isn't the case. LLCs have pass-through taxation and are privately owned. In effect, not double-taxation. And if you don't support any corporations that make campaign contributions to the democratic party, well then you must have figured out a way to telepathically connect to the internet as every major corporation in America makes donations to both sides. If I'm a corporation sending out a lobbyists I buy both politicians competing against each other in a senate race, therefore I can't (and don't ) lose.

    The Ethanol industry (and corn ethanol to be exact) that you mentioned earlier made major contributions to the Obama campaign. It's also a horribly inefficient means of producing ethanol. The Democratic/Republican mechanism of American politics is two sides to the same coin.


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  6. #36
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    (Introductiory explanation: I used to be, but I'm not a communist anymore.)

    Let's start with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    I don't understand how you can describe capitalism as "exploitation."
    Precisely the way PowerToThePeople said. You make, let's say, $70 profit for your employer and you only get $5 for it. That sir, is exploitation of human labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    You are not FORCED to work for a business or for an employer. You are free to apply for any business for any position for any employer and NEGOTIATE your compensation and your wage. How are you being exploited, when in a free market, if an employer's work conditions or compensation are unfavorable, you can simply and freely go to a competitor? That is not exploitation at all.
    First of all, that negotiation is far from equal terms. If you ask too much, they'll just basically say "No thanks" and won't lose anything, 'cause soon there's gonna appear another guy with same qualifications who wants a smaller wage. That free negotiation is, actually, better for the employer, as a worker is forced to constantly cut his own demands.

    Theoretically yes, you can freely go from one employer to a different one. But you would be crazy if you did that, because you'd be forced to cut your wage down again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Simply, I can freely go from one employer to a different one. I am not exploited. In matter of fact you can argue that the working class actually exploits the employers because we can quit or strike whenever we want. And in capitalist America, there are labor laws to prevent exploitation. Such as the 40 hour work week which seems perfectly FAIR to me. And minimum wage. Unemployment insurance. Laws prohibiting workplace harassment and discrimination. laws against child labor. Come on now. Who is being exploited?
    You can't quit or strike whenever you want, first thing first. There are requirements a trade union needs to meet if they want to pronounce a strike. And if you strike privately, that's more like being AWOL from a job - instant pink slip.

    And let's not forget that proponents of laissez-faire are all against labor laws. A capitalism which has labor laws already isn't laissez-faire, but is tempered with socialism (which is essentially a reformistic, instead of revolutionary, variant of communism).


    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    You can choose to not work at all in America and enjoy social welfare checks, public housing, etc. etc. They call this place the "land of opportunity" and in all seriousness there are opportunities everywhere. I have opportunities for employment all around me in America. I have opportunities for scholarships and grants and opportunities for advancement, promotions, bonuses, commissions... I have opportunities to join unions as an apprentice or opportunities to work in the public service sector. Whether or not I actually get off my ass to take advantage of those opportunities is the only question.
    True. Don't forget you got a lot of those opportunities because of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Communists are the ones exploiting the populace as a whole. in 1932, Stalin exploited the Ukraine by starving off the entire population because he had communist control (public ownership - yeah right!) of the agricultural output and how it is distributed amongst the people. Then Stalin went around the Soviet Union seizing people's grains and agricultural output. People were starving in the millions. There are documented cases of cannibalism taking place under stalinist russia. Women having sex for food.
    Just don't mention Stalin, ever since 1956 there is literally nobody among commies who think of Stalin as an idol. Soviet Union under Stalin wasn't even a socialist state, it was more like, as Trotsky said, "degenerate worker's state", with emphasis on degenerate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Here in America, it is practically impossible to starve. People don't even eat everything on their plates. We are gorged with food. Look at all the obese Americans. Our capitalist free market keeps food affordable, and keeps agriculture profitable for farmers.
    It's easy to be a farmer in 2010, when they make for less than 3% of total population. Try to say the same in 1932.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Not only this, but our free market capitalism has given our citizens the incentives and motivation to develop more efficient methods of producing more output with less inputs. Maximizing efficiency and reducing waste have increased profitability while the competitive market helps beat down prices. Brilliant.
    The failure of socialist states to do that has more to do with their crucial mistake, and that was putting people on leading positions based on their moral-political suitability, instead of professional qualifications. As I said, that was the essential mistake and probably caused the end of state socialism in Europe in 1989.

    Will continue later on.
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  7. #37
    'The Fourhorsemen' TSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WUnded Fox View Post
    greed is not naturally part of human nature.
    we live in a world of abundance. why would there be greed in world like that?
    greed was created by cutting humanity off from this abundance.
    greed is fear. fear of running out. fear of being powerless.
    when you stop feeding fear, fear dies.
    greed hazs nothing to do with abundance. the most greedy ppl in the world have an abundance of whatever they're greedy about, it still doesn't mean they want more for the sake of having more.

  8. #38
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    This is why we have the EPA, the FDA, health department, business licensing, OSHA, and all the many other USA federal and statge government regulatory agencies.
    Thanks to socialism, again. Okay, pardon me, socialists and greens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    The thing is, the free market possesses the power to punish immoral businesses. For example, pretend I am an environmentalist. So I am mad at BP for the gulf oil spill. I can simply protest and punish BP by no longer purchasing their gasoline or oil products with my hard earned money. This is the beauty of free market capitalism. My money talks. If I don't like a company's product or service, i punish them by going to a competitor instead. Our freedom of press allows us to compile consumer reports and rate our satisfaction with companies in our free market. I can read about other consumers' pleasant or unpleasant experiences with a particular company. So in this respect, many argue that the free market does a fair job of regulating itself.
    That's true, and that's definitely a positive side of capitalism. One side, remember.
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  9. #39
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Source? Does this really happen? Companies dump their own product into the sea rather than sell it? I doubt that is true. Please post where you get this information.

    That is funny, I didn't notice a shortage of clothing in America. Are there people freezing to death because they don't have clothes? Even poor people in this country have clothes. Man you can go to the salvation army and walk out with an entire wardrobe for less than $20. No capitalist country is going to just toss their own inventory if it is still in a good enough condition to sell. That doesn't make any sense.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/ny...l?ref=nyregion


    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Every single city I've ever lived in in the United States of America has free library access. Free PUBLIC libraries. I can go check out up to 10 books, including movies, magazines, etc. for FREE! FREE!! And I can also get a free public education for free. Nobody in America destroys their own inventory in order to drive up prices!!! What is the point of driving up prices if you destroyed your own inventory!?!?!? LOL
    To raise prices and increase profit. Otherwise, public libraries are free... um... everywhere? And about public education, again... thank socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Part of the reason I am laughing is that book burning is something that Communists are notorious for!! In America, we are allowed to have whatever kind of books we want. Freedom of speech. I can buy books on how to shoot guns and I can buy books filled with smut porn if I want. FREEDOM! However, the soviet Union banned LOTS of books.

    And communists are so stupid that they entrust their government to be in charge of the PRESS and to be in charge of all television and radio channels. Communists censor poetry, art, music, movies, etc. etc. You have no freedom of press. You do not have freedom of speech.
    That was definitely a huge mistake in Soviet Union, but not everywhere and not at all times. In 80's Yugoslavia you had a fairly big freedom of speech, up to the point where people openly criticized the CP and army - in Soviet Union you could as well get shot for that.

    But in Yugoslavia, in 1981, while it was still very socialist, a state television record company published a compilation that included a song named "Tovar'ši, jest vam ne verjamem" (Commies, I Don't Believe You). As far as I know, up to 1985 you had also quite a freedom of speech in Poland (until they had a coup d'etat by hardline communists who fucked it all up).


    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    I already pointed out the ironies in that cuban revolution thread about how HIP HOP is censored in Cuba, yet so many American hip hop artists wear che guevara shirts and praise Castro. The Cuban government controls the radio station, and they control the record companies.

    In America, I am not censored. I can have opposing political viewpoints and express them. I can burn the American flag and not get arrested. You go burn a Cuban flag in the street outside of Castro's house and see what happens. If you burned the soviet flag in front of the 1950s Soviet KGB, you'd mysteriously disappear.
    Yup, hardcore commie states were prone to make such mistakes. That's why they mostly fell apart, not because of economics.
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  10. #40
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    No. Because in capitalism, I put on a modest capital investment to startup my own printing press and print my own books and sell them for $80 if that is what FREE people in the FREE market with THEIR money CHOOSE to pay for it. No one is FORCED to pay $80 for that book. If someone else sells it cheaper, the consumer will go to the competitor. And if the worker wants to make more than $8 she can go work for another book company or else take her knowledge of her labor and become an entrepreneur.
    Yup, no one is forced, but let's be realistic, you don't have a choice. Just yesterday I bought Umberto Eco's "The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana" for 25 euros. Of course that, if I found the same book being sold for 5 euros, I'd buy that book. The only problem is, there isn't any: the publishing company that I bought that book from has exclusive rights on selling that book in my country. Same is with most of other books. Therefore, who dictates the prices?

    But all of that is missing the point. The point is: let's say you paid the worker $4 for half a hour of work (that's wage is, btw, so big that I have yet to see anyone getting paid that much), $3 for material of printing and cca. $3 per copy for copyright. That means you still got $70 for that book without having to work for it. You got it exclusively by investing $10 and exploiting the work of your employee. And THAT's the ripoff in that case.

    And about becoming an entrepreneur, yeah, theoretically it's possible, but practically it's a whole different story. I know that with my current wage (I work as a tourist guide), 500 euros a month netto, even if I ate only bread and water I wouldn't EVER have enough money to start my own travel agency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    There has never in the history of the world EVER existed a communist country in which the citizens and populace in general enjoyed a higher standard of living than what is commonly afforded in Capitalist America. You guys having been DREAMING since the communist manifesto. Philosophy, ideas, textbooks mumbo jumbo. But as soon as you try to put communism to work in REAL LIFE, it fails every single time and time and time again yet you guys still praise and worship failed communist dictators and hail and salute fallen communist governments that suffered a HUGE EXODUS of the population to FLEE from the conditions of communism. People RUN AWAY AND LEAVE COMMUNIST COUNTRIES! THEY ESCAPE!!
    Fun fact is that there's, for example, a whole lot of people in East Germany saying how they miss the communist period. True, they didn't have such a big standard, true, they were under state repression, but if they worked as regular and kept their mouths shut they didn't ever have to worry if they'll have their job the next day.

    The thing is, people always think their neighbor's grass is more green.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Yet the very communists that live here in America have no desire or motivation to leave because, well, capitalism is working out pretty fucking good for them. Communists in America bitch about how terrible and oppressive and evil capitalism is while they're counting their money in their McMansions. It's hilarious.
    So what should they do, in your opinion?



    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Yeah yeah. I went through my little rebelliousness phase in my life. But then I realized how good I have it and how fortunate I am to live in America. Anyways, capitalism lets me rebel. I can quit a job.
    You can, but you'd be an idiot if you did it unless you are so lucky that your proffession is in demand that particular moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    I can choose to buy or to not buy any specific product or service from any specific company. Money talks.
    In some cases, in some you can't, as I proved in this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Boycotts work.
    Funny that you said that, because here you have a life example from the construction company my pops works in. Workers there started joining the trade union, which scared the owner shitless, because in that case they could start a strike (he currently hasn't paid them for three months, and they usually work 12-14 hours and get paid for 8 hours of work; strangely enough, while he's doing such stuff and crying how the crisis got him poor, he bought himself a $70 000 car and completely refurnished his mansion).

    What he did is that he immediately fired all the workers that joined the trade union and hired new ones, under condition that they don't join any trade union while working for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Capitalism works.
    Partly: it brings a huge market crash cca. every 40 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Communism doesn't.
    Partly. Yugoslavia wasn't destroyed by anticommunism and capitalism, but by nationalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to explain how successfully communism has worked in any specific country in the history of the entire world.
    Yugoslavia in 60's was "booming" in words of Time magazine, while still being a communist country. Don't forget that some capitalist countries have among the first foreign policy priorities curtailing any socialist/communist movements around the world. (Indonesia 1965, Chile 1973, Brazil 1976, Bolivia 1982, Poland 1989, South Africa 1994... the list goes on.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Or are we still just idealizing the communist manifesto written by a fat lazy big bearded man who lived most of his life in CAPITALIST London....oh yeah Karl Marx is his name.
    And where was he supposed to live? Come on, name me one communist country in existence in 1867. (He lived in poverty there, by the way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    And can you please explain how Communists think they can artificially replace the natural forces of supply and demand that exist in a free market? Because government controlling supply and deciding what the demand is doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all. The Soviets didn't do a very good job supplying the essential demand for food in their communist paradise now did they?
    That was that stupid "transitional" phase towards communism (that's why they were all "socialist" republics) that stated that until situation is ripe for completely implementing communism there should exist state capitalism. That, plus the already stated facts that you could become a company director just by being a party member and not by having neccessary qualifications caused that shit to fail.

    Yugoslavia noted in 1950 that it doesn't work so they moved to a "workers self-management" principle that was much closer to Marx/Engels/Lenin's ideas and which, as I said, lead Yugoslavia into an economic boom in 60's and late 80's (you had two world oil crises in 70's mind that).
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  11. #41
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Do you buy products or services from these corporations? If so, why? Are you the one funding the corporations by consuming their products? Because, personally, I don't buy shit from companies that I don't like.
    Heh. They don't even make most of their money off consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    And have you considered buying stock in the corporations that sell the products and/or services that you do like? You can buy just one share of stock and get to vote for the directors that sit on the board that run the corporation! I get stuff in the mail almost everyday asking me to vote on an infinite number of issues and corporate decisions just from the dozen or so different stocks I'm invested in.
    My moms has been buying a stock in a hotel company for twelve years now and they didn't ask her shit yet. As far as I know she's now, like, a 1,5% owner. Hypo Alpe-Adria bank owns 51% of the company, they make all decisions. All she gets are dividends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Can you name a system that works better than capitalism? Look, lets be realistic. Capitalism isn't perfect. Nothing in life is perfect. There is no perfect form of government. But ours is pretty damned good. Would you like to fix what is wrong with it through the democratic process? Or would you like to pick up a gun and sacrifice your life to rebel and revolutionize? Or would you like to just passively complain and just go on with life as it is because its not perfect but not that bad either?

    What more are you expecting? Besides the average 2-3 bedroom house and car and computer and television and cell phone and clothes electricity water etc. etc. that Americans all have, what more would you have if we lived under communism? How much would your life be improved? Would you work less than 40 hours a week? Would your car be better? Would you have 2 or 3 cars? Would your house be bigger? I mean what the fuck do you expect out of all this? Is communism going to afford everyone a higher standard of living so that everyone has their own personal jet and helicopter and chauffeur? Get real!
    I'm completely satisfied with my apartment, car, food and clothes in this capitalism we have now. Just take away all the everyday stress of the possibility me getting fired just because my agency made a wrong investment and my life would be perfect.

    What should be fought against is further liberalization of capitalism, because it seems that it leads back to 1843.
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  12. #42
    Gen Chat Bully Uncle Steezo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSA View Post
    greed hazs nothing to do with abundance. the most greedy ppl in the world have an abundance of whatever they're greedy about, it still doesn't mean they want more for the sake of having more.
    that is the definition of greed.
    [insert gary coleman pic]
    whatchutalkinbouttissa?

  13. #43
    Munching eyes since 1989 Edgar Erebus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sense-A View Post
    Those videos you posted about EWG are about subsidies. Free market capitalism does not provide subsidies!!! Subsidies are a form of intervention from the government! Free market capitalists are against subsidization. If you oppose the $20 billion the USA spends to subsidize farmers, then join our side!

    But in all reality, $20B is really a drop in the bucket when it comes to managing our annual budget. A lot of that money goes toward subsidizing corn for the production of ethanol. Not necessarily a bad thing. We want to become less dependent on foreign oil, then these are the sacrifices we must make!

    Our annual budget is $3.5 trillion (way to go Obama! Run up that deficit GWB style!) $20B is 0.57% of our budget. It is something I'm willing to sacrifice for the few farmers that supply enough food for over 300 million American citizens.

    dumping inventory in return for subsidizations is not a CAPITALIST idea. Subsidization is closer to state socialism. When you interfere with the natural forces of the Free Market system, you create irrationality.
    Hahahaha.

    This is the same song big car manufacturers were singing up until they got almost crushed by recession, and then they came praying and crying into the congress to get a bailout.

    I'm tired, will continue later.
    "The Devil is not the Prince of Matter; the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, faith without smile, truth that is never seized by doubt. The Devil is grim because he knows where he is going, and, in moving, he always returns whence he came."

  14. #44
    I see you dawg SID's Avatar
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    Some excellent replies in this thread.
    Bank heist in Kathmandu, it was a slaughter
    The day Buddha was born it rained tea instead of water

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visionz View Post
    You're assuming all companies are publicly traded which just isn't the case. LLCs have pass-through taxation and are privately owned. In effect, not double-taxation. And if you don't support any corporations that make campaign contributions to the democratic party, well then you must have figured out a way to telepathically connect to the internet as every major corporation in America makes donations to both sides. If I'm a corporation sending out a lobbyists I buy both politicians competing against each other in a senate race, therefore I can't (and don't ) lose.

    The Ethanol industry (and corn ethanol to be exact) that you mentioned earlier made major contributions to the Obama campaign. It's also a horribly inefficient means of producing ethanol. The Democratic/Republican mechanism of American politics is two sides to the same coin.

    At this point you are just being a difficult man to please. No one forces you to vote Demoncrat/Republican in each election. There are many methods in place to put third party candidates of your choosing on the ticket for November elections. The system is not broken, it is the fact that only half our population participates in Presidential elections, and even a smaller percentage than that participate in off year elections, and even a smaller percentage than that actually participate in the primaries. If people hadn't skipped political science class to smoke weed, they'd know more about the democratic process and how candidates legally get themselves on to the ballot. Did you know that most of the people who ACTUALLY do show up are white? Statistics show that even in some communities where white people are actually the minority, they still always turn up in mass numbers to vote. Listen if you didn't participate in the primary elections or rally and support a third party candidate, I really don't think you should be allowed to complain. That is like getting an F on your test and complaining to the teacher even though you didn't do any of your homework assignments all fucking semester. I participate in all my elections, even in deciding who the fuck is on school board and who sits on city council. And I get to participate in all the many votes that my corporations hold on a weekly basis. I actually get a say!!

    People were singling out corporations as being evil. Now you want to talk about partnerships? What exactly do you feel is unfair or immoral about a business partner and I being able to form a partnership and go into business together? We still pay taxes on all the income and profits of that company. And we probably end up in a much higher tax bracket and pay a lot more in taxes than average Joe so that society as a whole can have public parks, public libraries, public housing, public roads, public education etc. etc. And we probably hire dozens of people, creating jobs and income for other people and other families. And if people don't like us, or our products, or our services, they don't have to buy them!! Nothing unfair about that.

    The ethanol industry is just one step we have taken to become more oil independent. Sure it may cost more than using crude oil. But does it? I mean one minute people are complaining about the war for oil, and now people are complaining about using corn and plants to produce oil? What does it take to please you guys? Do I need to invent a car that operates off of fairy dust? I mean come on, it is a step in the right direction. Do you think that communism creates an environment in which people are motivated to becoming innovative and invent new processes and use new ideas? NO of course not. In communism you clock in and clock out once the quota is reached, get your meal ticket and go home. There is no incentive for a commie to spend all night in a lab trying to turn corn into fuel because even if he did get it to work he'd have to share the profits with everyone else. There wouldn't be any profits, the government would just seize it like they do farmers' harvests.
    Last edited by Sense-A; 06-17-2010 at 06:53 AM.

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