Communism vs. Capitalism

[communist cunt]

Co-sign 100%.

[Sense-A]

Here is an example of how marxists run their country into the ground TODAY:

Mountains of rotting food found at a government warehouse, soaring prices and soldiers raiding wholesalers accused of hoarding: Food supply is the latest battle in President Hugo Chavez's socialist revolution.

Venezuelan army soldiers swept through the working class, pro-Chavez neighborhood of Catia in Caracas last week, seizing 120 tons of rice along with coffee and powdered milk that officials said was to be sold above regulated prices.

"The battle for food is a matter of national security," said a red-shirted official from the Food Ministry, resting his arm on a pallet laden with bags of coffee.

Chavez supporters are grateful for a network of cheap state-run supermarkets and they say the raids will slow massive inflation.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/37786852

Communist SEIZING the people's food so that they can allocate it....I mean....keep it in a warehouse for Chavez's goons.....so that it can rot.

Another communist dictator starving his own people. Lovely. If only goons could come to my house and seize my food and possessions, what a lovely society that would be!!!

Wasted FoodMuch of the wasted food, including powdered milk and meat, was found last month in the buildup to legislative elections in September. The scandal is humiliating for Chavez, who accuses wealthy elites of fueling inflation and causing shortages of products such as meat, sugar and milk by hoarding food.
"They are not going to stop us in the plan, which is to give the people what is their right," Chavez said Friday during the inauguration of a supermarket chain the government bought this year from French retailer Casino.
Food prices are up 41 percent in the last 12 months during a deep recession, government figures show, despite the government's growing network of state-run supermarkets that sell at discounts of up to 40 percent and are popular with his poor supporters.

Food prices up 40% ?!?! Once again the communists are guilty of exactly what they accuse the USA of. If you recall, earlier in this thread there were accusations of the USA just letting food rot and destroying the excess production. There was only a few sloppy youtube videos provided as biased evidence. Yet here on CNBC a very liberal news source we read that one of the most communist countries in the western hemisphere is actually the one doing this shit.


By the way, Venezuela is a very socialist country but is much closer to communism on the spectrum than European socialist countries.

[Sense-A]

e
You sound angry and judgmental. You extoll the virtues of capitalism but get irrate when it comes to discussing its flaws. In a truly free market, you'd have a five year old working in a sweat shop. Are you ok with that as well?

Don't even start this child labor bullshit. Because I'll throw the evidence in your face that child labor is actually something that historically happens in Communist Countries much much much more than it has happened in capitalist countries. So again you are accusing Capitalism of something we took the initiative to REJECT over 100 years ago that the COMMUNISTS STILL DO!!!

VENEZUELA NATIONAL STATISTICS:

NATIONAL STATISTICS
* For the year 2000, the ILO projects that there will be 0 economically active children between the ages of 10-14. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)
* The government's Central Office of Statistics and Information reports that 12% of the country's children between the ages of 10-17 are working, have worked at some time, or are seeking work. Of that number, approximately 70% work in the informal sector of the economy. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)
* An estimated 1.2 million children work in the informal sector, mostly as street vendors. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)
* The economically active population between the ages of 10-14 years is 80,781. (ILO-IPEC, El trabajo infantil en America Latina - CD-ROM, August 1999)
* The Venezuelan National Children's Institute calculates there are 302,000 children working in the formal sector of the economy, 1.1 million in the unregulated informal sector and 206,000 in activities such as begging, theft and prostitution. (UNICEF, State of the World's Children, 1996, citing Washington Post, 18 November 1996)
* The number of children at work has climbed from 8.5% in 1981 to 13.9% in 1991. (UNICEF, State of the World's Children, 1996, citing Washington Post, 18 November 1996)
* 1.6 million children are forced to work for a living. ("Venezuela losing war against sexual exploitation of children", ECPAT Bulletin, October 1996)
* In 1995, there were 23,000 economically active children, most of them boys between the ages of 10-14, representing 0.95% of this age group. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)

HAHAHHAHahahaha MARXIST HUGO CHAVEZ!!!! YES!!

[communist cunt]

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[Visionz]

Sense-a go around your house and throw away everything that wasn't made in America. How much is left over? A single shirt? Nothing? Capitalist by its very nature seeks the greatest profit margins possible. A company doesn't give a shit if its got to go to a communist country to get it.

I remember reading in the local paper a couple of years ago about gmc closing a plant in Mexico because the workers (those of 4.50 a day minimum wage) wanted too much money! Onward to China and 10 cents a hour labor the CEO says. onwards to my government bailout he says six years later. "You gotta save us, we're an American institution!!!!" (Only by name and hqs) they have no allegiance to the people who made them what they are.

You go right ahead thinking theres nothing wrong with the system. Most become full of shit one bite at a time and it seems you've been sitting at the dinner table for a while now.

[THE MASON]

i was in another city this weekend

and some one tried to sell me a Socialist paper, mind you it was only a dollar. but...

i thought, is it right for a socialist to sell a socialist paper? isnt that capitalism in a sense?

thoughts on that

[Sense-A]

So you are giving communists a free pass for using forced child labor because they export production to capitalist countries? That is foolish. Communists need to be responsible for their own child labor laws. Trying to blame it on the countries you export to is like me robbing the bank and blaming it on my employer for not paying me enough to begin with. And to Visionz, at least I have a CHOICE which products I buy. If i am gung-ho against cheap sweatshop labor, i can personally CHOOSE to not purchase products from companies that I suspect use child labor. that is called FREEDOM! I don't consider myself responsible for other countries' labor policies.

And that chart you posted, half of the countries don't even have data for them. The worst users of child labor are in "Mother Africa."

What about Communist China and all their FORCED child labor and human trafficking going on in their rural communities?

Children thought to be as young as eight years old were kidnapped, held captive and forced to work long hours for no pay.

The case has revealed the dark side of China's booming economy with forced labour and human trafficking common in rural areas, the BBC's Dan Griffiths reports from Beijing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6759399.stm

Overall, I think we are arguing a moot point because most civilized nations have outlawed child labor. But one last thing I want to analyze right out of the communist manifesto:

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...festo/ch02.htm

Now this isn't as good as it sounds because after reading the context I believe Karl Marx's vision was for children to be taken away from their parents and be placed in state run institutions where they would be educated and work at the same time. "combination of education with industrial production" ...yeah right. That means you are "Learning" a trade while you are "working."

In the early 1920’s, Lenin’s wife introduced project work to Russian educators. Around 1930 the head of the Institute of Educational Research in Moscow declared the "metod proektov" or project method to be the one and only "Marxist" and "democratic" method of teaching. The project method encouraged children to go to factories and support workers. Writing reports on laborers, demonstrating against idlers, and showing workpieces and products of their own were how the students supported the workers. http://www.milford.k12.il.us/MHSsite.../education.htm

In the Soviet Union this process started from the very beginning of a child’s life. Lenin said, "The entire purpose of training, educating, and teaching the youth of today should be to imbue them with communist ethics. The school apart from life, apart from politics, is a lie and a hypocrisy." Citizens were taught the communist world view of love of labor, patriotism, atheism, and collectivism.

Those of you who can't compete in this capitalist society in America would at least be trained to "love labor" in your communist school system. You'd also be trained to not believe in God. And don't forget, you are NOT an individual. You are merely a part in the socialist STATE. You are owned by the state.

So what do you think? You think in your communist paradise that you won't have to work 40 hours per week? At least here, you have the choice of whether you want to show up to work.

I am an INDIVIDUAL. I believe in GOD. I have freedom of choice. Freedom where and when i want to work. And capitalism is working out great for me. Sure the CEO of Coca Cola is making more money than I am. I don't care. I could be the next CEO of a corporation if I want to be. In matter of fact, I believe that the current system of capitalism in the United States would actually be better if we phased out some of the socialist ideas that were beginning to be implemented in the panic following the first Great Depression all part of Roosevelt's "New Deal" policies. But that is worthy of its own discussion.

Let's just pretend that P2P has convinced me how wonderful communism is. Where in the world could I move to in order to enjoy the prosperity of a communist system? Or does communism only succeed in your textbook?

[communist cunt]

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[Sense-A]

I disagree. I don't agree with you correlating individualism with consumerism. That was a long shot. Even the lowest class Americans are able to express themselves in infinite ways in America. Not everyone buys into Hollywood and celebrityism. Being an individual isn't about how much money you have. It is about your freedom. Freedom of speech. Freedom of press. Freedom of religion. Freedom to assemble. Freedom to petition. You don't get these freedoms in Communism. Therefore you are less of an individual. You are not allowed to disagree with the elitists running the communist country. You are not allowed to practice religion. In communist countries you can say things that get you killed. The government owns all media and distributive outlets. Therefore if you aren't the INDIVIDUAL that the government wants to promote, you get silenced. How's that for individualism?

I don't mean to brush off your retorts. I actually respect and appreciate you arguing your side.

Again, I ask, if you were to convince me to your side, then what country would you recommend I move to in order to experience the prosperity of communism? Because, if I were to support communism, there is no way that i could spend the rest of my life living in America directly supporting Capitalism. Certainly, there must be somewhere in the world that Communism has already succeeded. But where?

[DUMBO]

Capitalism is Freedom over Equality.
Communism is Equality over Freedom.
Thats all.

Adam Smith argued that capitalism was an equitable system based on individual freedom. Marx, for his part, understood that communism would be the ultimate liberation of humanity as they were able to be whatever they wanted to be outside of the constraints of powerful elites.


The two are not mutually exclusive, but the truth is politicized.

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

But we have elites for a reason, they're actually better then other people...

That's why I don't like Communism. Some people are smarter, better looking, more athletic, taller, stronger, and faster then you. As a result, they're also more confident, nicer, and more polite. Communism punishes those people in order to reward others.

[Cthulhu]

what about anarchism/libertarian socialism? Why does it have to be between unbridled laizze-faire capitalism and state socialism?

The CNT had some remarkable infrastructural success during the Spanish Civil War. I don't know if such a system would work now or not, but it's worth noting that communism/socialism doesn't have to be of the Marxist-Leninist dictatorship variety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia

[Visionz]

So you are giving communists a free pass for using forced child labor because they export production to capitalist countries? That is foolish. Communists need to be responsible for their own child labor laws. Trying to blame it on the countries you export to is like me robbing the bank and blaming it on my employer for not paying me enough to begin with. And to Visionz, at least I have a CHOICE which products I buy. If i am gung-ho against cheap sweatshop labor, i can personally CHOOSE to not purchase products from companies that I suspect use child labor. that is called FREEDOM! I don't consider myself responsible for other countries' labor policies.

not at all but you're trying to pretend that capitalism has nothing to do with child labor if its taking place in a communist country which I find laughable. You say you have a choice in this regards and I'd contest that though you may you're probably not exercising that freedom. The fact you're on the internet at all tells me I've for about a 99% chance of that being correct.


Whenever extreme poverty exist there will be some corporation there to exploit the situation and a government that's willing to sell their people out if the price is right. All participating parties are guilty, myself and my nation included. I'm just pointing out that you're no different (even if you like to pretend you are).

[Sense-A]

Visionz, you cannot reasonably expect me to trace every single product that i buy back to its original place of production and to investigate the labor laws of that resident country. Child labor is unacceptable whether it exists in capitalism or communism. Historically it existed in both. I still don't think there is anything wrong with parents requiring their children to do chores around the house and earn allowances instead of letting them rot in front of televisions all day playing video games and having everything handed to them for free. That sort of parenting only breeds them to expect things for free when they become adults (i.e. communists).

Cthulhu: feel welcome to introduce your own take. As far as libertarian socialism, I like the libertarian element but I don't like the socialist element. I wish the libertarian party would gain some more support in the USA because we sure as hell need to downsize government and decentralize the federal government. Our country started off with strong state powers, however in the 20th century more and more of that power became centralized to our federal government. However I am not so libertarian that I believe in anarchism. Just as a disclaimer, my idea of libertarianism is the American blend. What you consider libertarian in another country may be far different. Texas congressman Ron Paul to me is a perfect blend of conservativeness and American libertarianism. I'd like more of the federal powers to go back to the states. That way if i hate one state's laws i could just go to a different state, but still be under the umbrella of the United States.

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

Ideally, we get the states to a point they can form their own countries or confederations. America is too big and too diverse to not allow regions to govern themselves the way they want.

Its like why should a New York Senator or Congressman dictate the rule of law in Arizona. At inception it was 13 nations bound together by their local geography and English Heritage. What uniting force do the states have now? The Old South and New England are so different it's hardly the same country. Our accents are very different, our culture, hell our social interactions are very different. It's like honestly, put the two in a room and the Southerner will start the conversation.

The States aren't just geographic divisions. It's not like France where the entire government is united. We don't have departments like they do. We have 50 States. 50 Independent Nations being choked to death by an oversizes central government. Why can't we be like the European Union rather then a singular entity. If NYC or California or Mass wants their "free" state health care, let them eat cake. If Arizona wants to wall themselves off from the outside world and put down some paranoia land mines, why should Oregon be able to say "That's xenophobic." If Michigan wants to divide into two states who the hell cares. Vermont says "Fuck you guys we're a Canadian province gargle on my cack, who are we to say "You can't do that."

The Idea that states can join the US of their own will but can't leave is insane to me.