Communism vs. Capitalism

[Cthulhu]

Visionz, you cannot reasonably expect me to trace every single product that i buy back to its original place of production and to investigate the labor laws of that resident country. Child labor is unacceptable whether it exists in capitalism or communism. Historically it existed in both. I still don't think there is anything wrong with parents requiring their children to do chores around the house and earn allowances instead of letting them rot in front of televisions all day playing video games and having everything handed to them for free. That sort of parenting only breeds them to expect things for free when they become adults (i.e. communists).

Cthulhu: feel welcome to introduce your own take. As far as libertarian socialism, I like the libertarian element but I don't like the socialist element. I wish the libertarian party would gain some more support in the USA because we sure as hell need to downsize government and decentralize the federal government. Our country started off with strong state powers, however in the 20th century more and more of that power became centralized to our federal government. However I am not so libertarian that I believe in anarchism. Just as a disclaimer, my idea of libertarianism is the American blend. What you consider libertarian in another country may be far different. Texas congressman Ron Paul to me is a perfect blend of conservativeness and American libertarianism. I'd like more of the federal powers to go back to the states. That way if i hate one state's laws i could just go to a different state, but still be under the umbrella of the United States.

I'm not talking about right libertarianism, but the variety anti-capitalist political philosophies that favor collective ownership of the means of production, but decentralized planning based on direct democracy and group consensus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutuali...onomic_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_libertarianism

Noam Chomsky is probably the most prominent proponent of such a system, but it has a very long history of thought. When people define themselves as anarchists, they usually belong to one of these related schools of thought. I can't say I know enough about it to say how practical such a system would be, but in theory it appears the most just to me.

[Visionz]

Visionz, you cannot reasonably expect me to trace every single product that i buy back to its original place of production and to investigate the labor laws of that resident country. Child labor is unacceptable whether it exists in capitalism or communism. Historically it existed in both. I still don't think there is anything wrong with parents requiring their children to do chores around the house and earn allowances instead of letting them rot in front of televisions all day playing video games and having everything handed to them for free. That sort of parenting only breeds them to expect things for free when they become adults (i.e. communists).

one second you're talking about your freedom to choose, now you can't be held responsible even though most of what you own was most likely produced in a factory of underpaid workers and/or children. Nice way to try and shift talk over to household chores in light of the fact though, very relevant.

Don't even start this child labor bullshit. Because I'll throw the evidence in your face that child labor is actually something that historically happens in Communist Countries much much much more than it has happened in capitalist countries. So again you are accusing Capitalism of something we took the initiative to REJECT over 100 years ago that the COMMUNISTS STILL DO!!!

Capitalism didn't reject it, it shipped the exploitation from home to overseas and now has flooded you with so much imports that you feel helpless in any attempt to determine whether the product coincides with your own personal values. But don't feel bad they're doing it to the entire world. I'm typing this on an Imac that stands a good chance of being assembled by a 5 year old. Apple isn't a communist institution is it?
Why are they made in China though? The label tells me it was designed in California, aren't they having an in-state crisis right now? Couldn't that state use some factories to pay some workers to bring more money into their economy? It's safe to assume Apple has the capital with the amount of iphones, ipads, imacs and ipods being sold world-wide isn't it?

Ignoring the problems of capitalist markets will not make them go away. Perpetual ignorance is not a viable long-term solution for the future of this planet. And child labor is but a single issue. Capitalism causes many problems and you've spent a good amount of this thread pretending they don't exist and/or that they don't have anything to do with you. There is but one human race and all of us should be mindful of our actions and their repercussions in this global economy run by multi-national corporations. Everywhere, the effects are far-reaching.

[Visionz]

I'm not talking about right libertarianism, but the variety anti-capitalist political philosophies that favor collective ownership of the means of production, but decentralized planning based on direct democracy and group consensus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutuali...onomic_theory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_libertarianism

Noam Chomsky is probably the most prominent proponent of such a system, but it has a very long history of thought. When people define themselves as anarchists, they usually belong to one of these related schools of thought. I can't say I know enough about it to say how practical such a system would be, but in theory it appears the most just to me.

Could you share some of what you do know about it. From browsing through a couple of these links, I'm having a hard time visualizing what they're aiming for. Shared property (that isn't owned by anyone) as a means of production by a union where everyone is their own boss? Maybe I have that wrong but how does that work if , say, a union was building a car?

[Cthulhu]

Could you share some of what you do know about it. From browsing through a couple of these links, I'm having a hard time visualizing what they're aiming for. Shared property (that isn't owned by anyone) as a means of production by a union where everyone is their own boss? Maybe I have that wrong but how does that work if , say, a union was building a car?

Again, I'm far from an expert, but it's something I've been researching here and there. The main problem I see is how you would overcome the problem of incentives. It has, however, been tried before with some success, but, unlike state communism, it's unclear whether it would have succeeded or failed in the long run since Franco's fascist government brutally suppressed them.

http://libcom.org/library/workers-po...ion-tom-wetzel

[Cthulhu]

I haven't read through most of this, but I imagine this site is a good resource for looking into this philosophy in detail.

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

When you talk about say Nike using third world sweat shop labor to make my 145 dollar Air Maxes for next to nothing all I can say is

"I DON'T EVEN CARE."

And guess what, you're defeated. Call me ignorant, but how do I even know those people exist? I don't care when someone dies in the newspaper. I'm not crying uncontrollably when I see someone got raped and murdered in Nevada or something. Let's be honest, I'm not that concerned when a bomb goes off in Baghdad, and even the deaths of soldiers isn't going to wet my eyes (although I feel bad about that, because they're fighting a pointless war in my defense, which means it's not something to ignore like a homicide in Manhattan.)

The point ladies and gentlemen, is to quite simply Shut The Fuck Up. All you fagots don't give shit to charity, and then blame the government for not doing it for you. Has anyone else done charity work that wasn't court ordered? That's why I hate communists. They're all about fighting the power and the man and overthrowing tyrants and the glorious stuff, but when do they give? Communism is take take take. "He has what I deserve, so I'll kill him and take it." That's all the communist revolution is. It's a dehumanizing slaughter of those innocents capable of making money and those people who through no fault of their own ended up with more wealth then you. Guess what? You can earn your way.

In the mean time, I'm going to keep looking for a summer job. Although I could, I don't want to be a drain on my parents. I'm not getting a job at my dad's business, I'm going to get minimum wage or marginally better job and work at it. When I worked for my dad I got like 10 dollars an hour to do one or two errands for the day. That's dumb. I didn't earn that.

[communist cunt]

edit

[Sense-A]

Ideally, we get the states to a point they can form their own countries or confederations. America is too big and too diverse to not allow regions to govern themselves the way they want.

The Idea that states can join the US of their own will but can't leave is insane to me.

Last time we did that it led to a little mishap called the Civil War. The bloodiest war in American History was us fighting ourselves.

I agree that the healthcare bill should have been legislated in Nancy Pelosi's state if the dumb bitch wanted it that much. But we all know how great CA is at managing their budget. They are on the fucking pink sheets. An open border policy mixed with entitlements is not a good mix. Massachusetts implemented their own damned healthcare entitlement program before Obama tried forcing it on the rest of the states. So yeah, on legislation with so much rivalry and bipartisanship, leave it up to the states!

[Sense-A]

Ignoring the problems of capitalist markets will not make them go away. Perpetual ignorance is not a viable long-term solution for the future of this planet. And child labor is but a single issue. Capitalism causes many problems and you've spent a good amount of this thread pretending they don't exist and/or that they don't have anything to do with you. There is but one human race and all of us should be mindful of our actions and their repercussions in this global economy run by multi-national corporations. Everywhere, the effects are far-reaching.

Okay so you are arguing that outsourcing our production prevents us from governing the workers' rights in other countries. But have you gone and asked a sweat shop worker if they are happy? Or if they want to quit?

We hear about factory workers in other countries only making about $2 an hour, but have you ever considered what their alternative choices are? Even though $2 seems like a pittance to you, it may be a blessing for them. For someone in a poor rundown third world country with no effective economic system, that $2 an hour opportunity might be their bread and butter thanks to multi-national companies giving third world people who would otherwise be wiping their asses with leaves a chance to ease into the conveniences of a civilized modern life.

It is not the USA's place to tell other countries how to operate their factories. We are only responsible for America because in America is where I vote and where I have influence on our politics and legislation. I have no vote or effect on the laws of another country. Of course my money talks though, as I've already mentioned. So my best method of protest is to not buy those products that I suspect capitalizes off employees in bad work conditions. But then that employee may get laid off and they go from making $2 per hour to $0 per hour.

If those third world countries adapted to a capitalist system modeled after the USA, they wouldn't be hiring children or paying assembly line workers a pittance. All it would do is make our imports more expensive. Supply and demand would adjust, the market would work itself out.

Your argument doesn't hold much weight if you believe that a Communist country does not import/export products or internationally trade, even with capitalists. Hell the Soviet Union was trading with capitalist nations. If they were strictly communist, why didn't they refuse to trade with the very nations that were capitalist that they so intently rejected?

Child labor is not a direct consequence of capitalism. It exists in communist societies as well. Modern capitalist nations have adapted rights afforded to employees and have outlawed child labor.

China is a modernized communist nation. Yet they export most of their production to the USA. So maybe the communists are the root of the problem?

Here is an interesting note, since China gradually became less and less communist since the '70s, their economy has gradually become more and more successful as it has become more and more capitalist!!!

China's economy during the last quarter century has changed from a centrally planned system that was largely closed to international trade to a more market-oriented economy that has a rapidly growing private sector and is a major player in the global economy. Reforms started in the late 1970s with the phasing out of collectivized agriculture, and expanded to include the gradual liberalization of prices, fiscal decentralization, increased autonomy for state enterprises, the foundation of a diversified banking system, the development of stock markets, the rapid growth of the non-state sector, and the opening to foreign trade and investment. China has generally implemented reforms in a gradualist or piecemeal fashion, including the sale of minority shares in four of China's largest state banks to foreign investors and refinements in foreign exchange and bond markets in 2005... The restructuring of the economy and resulting efficiency gains have contributed to a more than tenfold increase in GDP since 1978. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ch.html

Well who would have thought!?

Another important point is that our corporations are not outsourcing for the primary purpose of cheap labor. I don't know if you noticed, but we tax the "EVIL" corporations to death!!! We double tax them for one. We tax the corporation as an entity and the shareholders who collectively own the corporations get taxed AGAIN! And corporations alone are paying about 40% tax on their income!! Almost half their profits go straight to Uncle Sam!! So of course they try to re-locate as many of their operations as possible overseas. The USA has one of the highest tax rates on businesses in the entire world! So all the people in this country who are so against corporations and chant "EVIL CORPORATE THIS EVIL CORPORATE THAT!" should be grateful for all the tax revenue the corp's are bringing in and all the jobs that they create for people in an economy that, recently, NEEDS as many jobs as it can get to get these lazy fucking bums off the unemployment rolls!

[Sense-A]

In 2007 the USA government collected $2.7 trillion in tax revenue. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...venue_by_state). How much of that $2.7 trillion did your sorry ass pay?

The 2007 USA population was 305,562,616.

So $2,674,007,818,000 divided by 305,562,616 people equals $8,528.22 per person.

Please pay $8,528.22 each year to the federal government as your EQUAL share!!! And that is just federal taxes. Don't forget your EQUAL share of State and County taxes!! You probably don't even make that much a year total. The progressively taxed upper class in this society are carrying your weight for you. But I thought we were equal? Shouldn't we all EQUALLY contribute?!?!?!

You hate the upper class for making more money than you. But you don't hate them for paying for all the entitlements that you get, do you? Little doggie, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Visionz]

"I DON'T EVEN CARE."

you're a short-sighted teenage yuppy, of course you don't care. Real-world perspective is something that comes with age. You're not there yet so maybe you should just sit down and keep quiet.

But have you gone and asked a sweat shop worker if they are happy? Or if they want to quit?

You can't even be bothered to check if the products you buy are made in a sweatshop but you're asking if I've taken a plane trip to China? lol I've had conversations with illegal immigrants here in Texas, you tell me if that counts or not.

We hear about factory workers in other countries only making about $2 an hour

You mean 10 to 30 cents a hour.

So my best method of protest is to not buy those products that I suspect capitalizes off employees in bad work conditions

Research you've already admitted you can't be bothered with

our argument doesn't hold much weight if you believe that a Communist country does not import/export products or internationally trade, even with capitalists

your reading comprehension is failing you on this one. Communist China is one of our biggest trading partners so idk what led you to think this was ever suggested.

Child labor is not a direct consequence of capitalism. It exists in communist societies as well. Modern capitalist nations have adapted rights afforded to employees and have outlawed child labor.

China is a modernized communist nation. Yet they export most of their production to the USA. So maybe the communists are the root of the problem?

Here is an interesting note, since China gradually became less and less communist since the '70s, their economy has gradually become more and more successful as it has become more and more capitalist!!

You keep on ignoring the fact that all those exports are the product of so-called US companies. China's not making $250 Billion a year in exports to the US shipping Tsing Tao everywhere. As for that other statement, produce and production are two different things. Its American produce in production from China. You never answered the question, if you threw away everything in your house that wasn't made in the US would you have anything left?

So of course they try to re-locate as many of their operations as possible overseas.

Did you just really try to pitch that as an argument? You know it doesn't make any sense right?

If I'm Nike and I've got a plant in China and I can produce a pair of shoes for $5 and then sale 'em for $140 here in the US, am I paying taxes on the $5 or the $140? Ofcourse its about cheap labor! That's a pretty naive statement for someone so proud of their college education.lol Nice try though.


And I'm not gonna even give a response to this other bullshit post of yours. Yeah I really don't make 8 grand in a year I love how people know everything about you when you're not ready to swallow the blind nationalistic bullshit they're serving. Gtfoh with that noise.

[DUMBO]

In 2007 the USA government collected $2.7 trillion in tax revenue. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...venue_by_state). How much of that $2.7 trillion did your sorry ass pay?

The 2007 USA population was 305,562,616.

So $2,674,007,818,000 divided by 305,562,616 people equals $8,528.22 per person.

Please pay $8,528.22 each year to the federal government as your EQUAL share!!! And that is just federal taxes. Don't forget your EQUAL share of State and County taxes!! You probably don't even make that much a year total. The progressively taxed upper class in this society are carrying your weight for you. But I thought we were equal? Shouldn't we all EQUALLY contribute?!?!?!

You hate the upper class for making more money than you. But you don't hate them for paying for all the entitlements that you get, do you? Little doggie, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

re-do your math. corporations also receive public goods from tax revenues. better yet, re-calculate according to the proportion of benefits from public expenditure and said beneficiaries.

[communist cunt]

edit

[Cthulhu]

yeah, but Lenin and co. made their people suffer just as bad or worse as under capitalism because they essentially operated as one giant corporation that you couldn't quite your job from. Plus it's not constructive to just blame everything on a fuzzy category of "bourgeois" people. The allure of consumerism and profit affects everyone, from the top of the ladder to the poorest person. I support collective action and empowerment from the bottom up, but I can never get behind the idea of a "vanguard" party condesendingly claiming to represent the interests of the oppressed and violently attacking those who criticize them.

"They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up. ”
— Mikhail Bakunin, Statism and Anarchism

/\
And that shit was written waaaay before the Russian Revolution. Funny how he was dead on accurate.

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

Here's an idea. Why don't we all look out for ourselves and see what happens? If I bother myself in the betterment of others do I not injure my own betterment?

Like Cain said to God "Am I my Brother's Keeper?"

The Bible says yes, and to an extent that seems reasonable.

However in the wider context, who is my brother?

Should I look out for my family and friends? Sure.

Should I look out for people I don't know? How can I even try to?

If you walk down the street one day and don't see someone getting mugged or hear of it later, did they ever get mugged? How can you do anything about it?

People talk big about giving money to charity or seeking social changes and that is a good thing, but at the same time they ignore the problems that are closer to home. What good will it do to fight your revolution if you ignore the signs of depression in a family member? Why do we obsess about the big things and belittle the things we can actually change?