Communism vs. Capitalism

[rainbow]

ALL CORPORATIONS AND PROPRIETORSHIPS ARE OWNED BY PEOPLE!!!! WITHOUT PEOPLE THESE TAX PAYING ORGANIZATIONS DO NOT EXIST! BY DIVIDING BY ALL PEOPLE I HAVE INCLUDED THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND ALL TAXATION. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?

Just to make you happy I will exclude corporate tax revenue, even though this throws the numbers off because tax revenue collected from corporations is still spent on PEOPLE and paid for by PEOPLE! According to the Congressional Budget Office statistics, 12% of federal tax revenue was collected from corporations in 2009. (even though the shareholders "people" suffer this taxation we will deduct it to please DUMBO)

so 12% of $2,674,007,818,000 is $320,880,938,160.

$2,674,007,818,000-$320,880,938,160=$2,353,126,879,840

$2,353,126,879,840 / 305,562,616 = $7700.96 federal tax liability PER PERSON

Please pay your EQUAL share since you want economic EQUALITY!!! Otherwise thank the people who get fucked with a 35% tax rate and pay double taxation with payroll, corporate, LT and ST capital gains taxes.

The fact of the matter is you couldn't even pay your equal share of the costs it takes to run this country. The money it costs for our roads, our military, our public buildings and offices, all the subsidies to agriculture and energy and water projects, the parks, the libraries, the public education system, state universities, hospitals, clinics, (medicare, medicaid), welfare, section 8 housing, airports, railways, etc. etc. etc.

And this isn't even counting your EQUAL fucking share of STATE taxes that pay for public officials, police, teacher salaries, etc. etc. That'll add on another couple grand to your annual bill that you should EQUALLY foot as an EQUAL citizen in the economy.

Or you can complain because Mr. Corporate CEO who has a PHD and has been successful in every business venture he's ever partaken in and drives a Mercedes 500 series and pays >$10,000 in annual income taxes while you're unemployed lazy ass drives a toyota and gets a federal tax refund at the end of the year in a greater amount than you even paid in! All the while you get to reap as many public goods benefits as he does even though you are a drain on the federal system, not a contributor.

One day you will realize this and be thankful that you live in a capitalist system, unless you are a hard worker with a good education who is successful in business and it is YOU who is getting fucked by the government taking >35% of your income.

Why is it that so many American's cannot begin to grasp the concept of taxation, whether corporate or income.

Fucking hell, i mean, you think someone working full time earning $15,000 a year should pay the same amount of tax as someone working the same hours earning $150,000.... seemingly with no idea of the implication this has in terms of wealth stratification.

You didn't even say the same percentage (which would have been slightly less stupid), you actually think they should pay the same amount.

I understand you are of the opinion that everyone in the US begins life with completely equal opportunity.

I mean, you fucking live there, but are you really that naive?

Why are you so intent on perpetuation of poverty (and wealth for that matter).

You seem obsessed with these loose ideas of hard work.

You really think that the reason people born into destitution often remain locked in poverty, is because they refuse to work hard?

You really think the poor and wealthy have equal opportunity and prospects when it comes to education, health care, housing etc. etc.?

Yeah, again, you're fucking naive.

[DUMBO]

Hm, why doesn't one of you provide an example of pure capitalism in action.

And another one of you can provide an example of pure communism in action.

Because Sense A is simply arguing that pure Capitalist theory works (nice observation bro... of course it fucking works, it's an idealistic theory).

Show me the pure free market functioning efficiently in practice.

Show me a nation that allows inefficient participants in it's economy to be punished, even if this is to the short term detriment of their national economy.

And i'll show you a communist nation with a contented and well adjusted population where wealth is evenly distributed and all civil services are available publicly.

Is the pointlessness of this thread sinking in... or not?

And nothing irritates me more than faggit American's who think Socialism and Communism are synonymous.

Fucking ignoramuses.

^this. There is a reason why the early soviet state was forced to institute NEP and return some capitalist elements to the socialist economy. And there is a reason why no capitalist state can exist without extensive socialist principles. sense-a doesn't get the fact that the real US capitalist economy has never been able to achieve full employment without massive state expenditure.

sense-a: take away the military and all the ppl they employ. now take away all other state employees, including the massive number that are always working on infrastructure that capitalists never develop because it is not profitable. what are you left with in terms of employment? official unemployment figures during high times are around 5 percent. however this does not include the large numbers of people who are not in the labour force. and this fictional rate is bulked up by a massive public sector and benefits for those out of work - including those retired. my sense is that the real capitalist economy (sans the massive state expenditure that employs ppl, including massive transfers of personal tax contributions to military spending for private firms with dubious contractual arrangements) in the US has never been able to achieve unemployment below 25%.

so what are the others to do? is it ok with you for them to undertake redistribution through violence (theft, extortion etc)? or do you prefer another form of redistribution that creates the appearance of full capitalist employment that secure the capitalist state? these are political acts to preserve the capitalist system so caps can shakedown labour. that is why the US, like all capitalist economies, must be a welfare state with considerable socialist elements.

a lot of brothers on this site are putting in work. making money and running businesses etc. myself included - i do, for the sake of my family and future, aim as well to make creflo-dollars, but i am not so naive to actually think, therefore, on account of my personal actions and the contradictory place i have to act from, that the system is fair, just or ultimately good for the planet. anyone that does must have their head in the sky.

the world is by and large a capitalist world. now look at the state of the world and tell me everything is cool.

somebody tell this fool about keynes and effective demand. capitalist economies, and capitalists, need and desire the state. however, the form of the state is the political dispute that we hear on a daily basis.

[PALEHORSE]

Why is it that so many American's cannot begin to grasp the concept of taxation, whether corporate or income.

Fucking hell, i mean, you think someone working full time earning $15,000 a year should pay the same amount of tax as someone working the same hours earning $150,000.... seemingly with no idea of the implication this has in terms of wealth stratification.

You didn't even say the same percentage (which would have been slightly less stupid), you actually think they should pay the same amount.

I understand you are of the opinion that everyone in the US begins life with completely equal opportunity.

I mean, you fucking live there, but are you really that naive?

Why are you so intent on perpetuation of poverty (and wealth for that matter).

You seem obsessed with these loose ideas of hard work.

You really think that the reason people born into destitution often remain locked in poverty, is because they refuse to work hard?

You really think the poor and wealthy have equal opportunity and prospects when it comes to education, health care, housing etc. etc.?

Yeah, again, you're fucking naive.

no

and america is free

taxation of income is illegal here

and the way taxes are set up here is that the guy startng out gets taxed the most while the rich get taxed the least

its a trap

its a caste system

[Sense-A]

Why is it that so many American's cannot begin to grasp the concept of taxation, whether corporate or income.

Fucking hell, i mean, you think someone working full time earning $15,000 a year should pay the same amount of tax as someone working the same hours earning $150,000.... seemingly with no idea of the implication this has in terms of wealth stratification.

You didn't even say the same percentage (which would have been slightly less stupid), you actually think they should pay the same amount.

I understand you are of the opinion that everyone in the US begins life with completely equal opportunity.

I mean, you fucking live there, but are you really that naive?

Why are you so intent on perpetuation of poverty (and wealth for that matter).

You seem obsessed with these loose ideas of hard work.

You really think that the reason people born into destitution often remain locked in poverty, is because they refuse to work hard?

You really think the poor and wealthy have equal opportunity and prospects when it comes to education, health care, housing etc. etc.?

Yeah, again, you're fucking naive.

The whole idea behind communism is equal distribution of public goods. So if we all get an equal apartment and an equal car and an equal sum for our labor, why not give everyone an equal COST of what it COSTS to run the community that they live in? If you are going to share the wealth, you have to share the costs as well. Communists want all the assets, but none of the liabilities. If you keep stealing from the rich only to give to the poor, then no one is ever even going to bother to try to become successful and get rich because it will get REDISTRIBUTED again and again and again. You are breaking the whole incentive program apart so that eventually no one will even bother to be an entreprenuer and the only jobs are going to be government jobs. We will ALL BE DEPENDENT ON THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT.

Let me put it in terms for you shallow wu fans. Why should Wu-Tang keep releasing albums if almost half their income gets redistributed to the WACK rappers who can't sell a fucking album? This is basically what happens in socialist society on a larger scale.

The rich and poor have equal access to the public education system k-12. Children have never been turned away from a hospital as far as i know. Medicaid is FREE HEALTHCARE for poor people. How do you think broke-ass mothers get free child delivery at the hospital?!?!? Normally child birth costs $20,000!!!! But the broke mothers in the ghetto pump out 5 kids a piece and medicaid pays for the delivery, cutting the umbilical cord, the vaccination shots, everything!! The poor get free housing if they need it and they qualify (based on income, dependents). Basically, the poor are provided everything they need to rise up and leave the ghetto. However, you typically see people in the ghetto living in section 8 housing with big screen tv's, new air jordans, gold necklaces, and 20" rims. So obviously their priorities are mixed up. They don't seem too concerned on moving out of the ghetto. They'd rather begin flaunting wealth before they even get it. Are YOU THAT NAIVE!?!?!? Go to the local social security office. Now go take a look at the unemployment line. Half the people have new clothes on, brand new squeaky clean sneakers, jewelry, THEY ALL HAVE NEW CELL PHONES!, women with their hair professionally done, guys with ipods and all kinds of nice gear even better than i have!!! You call that poverty!!?!?!? People in the ghetto are perpetuating their own fucking poverty through drug use, laziness, money mismanagement, broken family relationships, etc. all with the assistance of the Demoncratic party that tries to keep them on the Government's TEET!! (*suckle* *suckle* *suckle*). People in America consider themselves "POVERTY" if they only have one car, one gold chain, one cell phone, chrome rims less than 22", the old 5th generation ipod, a laptop instead of a netbook, etc. It is a fucking joke if you actually consider that POVERTY. You don't know anything about poverty until you LEAVE America. Go to mother Africa and see what poverty really is.

[Sense-A]

no

and america is free

taxation of income is illegal here

and the way taxes are set up here is that the guy startng out gets taxed the most while the rich get taxed the least

its a trap

its a caste system

Bullshit. I served two tax seasons working for VITA doing "POOR" PEOPLE's TAXES. See here: http://www.vita-volunteers.org/index.htm I am a volunteer for two taxes seasons now. Meaning that i have done over 100 poor people's taxes. They don't pay a fucking dime in federal taxes. Take your lies and conspiracies somewhere else.

And go read the 16th amendment to the Constitution if you really think taxation of income is illegal.

[Sense-A]

corporate income is not personal income. therefore your first calculation is dumb to use to analyze a capitalist economy, even more so in a global context. i guess you assume that the owners of every american corporation live in america?

your second calculation is more disingenuous than dumb, although it is still pretty dumb. public dollars are spent every day on corporations and not only in the form of subsidies. tax dollars are used to build roads and massive infrastructure not the least of which on energy facilitities that are used, nay required, by corporations. re-calculate again and quit your whining.

Corporate income IS PERSONAL INCOME. DO you understand how corporations work? Stock is issued. People are SHAREHOLDERS!!! Income is pass through!!!

All the public dollars spent on roads and infrastructure are for the social benefit. Most energy facilities have price controls placed on them by their resident states. they are HEAVILY regulated and not very capitalist at all. They are monopolized by the state.

Nevermind. Just nevermind.

[communist cunt]

edit

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

Sense-A, the incentive exists the same as in pre-welfare capitalism. In communism if one does not work, one cannot reap the rewards. Ever heard of "From each according to his abilities, to each according to their need"?

That's because communism is not a welfare system - it can't be, for class exploitation does not exist for a dominating class to give the exploited pocket change. If you're able-bodied and refuse to work despite full employment opportunities (indiscriminate of ones class or race), you shouldn't expect anything back.

There's your incentive. One's livelihood depends on their own contribution.

The difference is that in communism, class-discrimination can not exist - ones fathers wealth or poverty is no longer a determining factor in how successful one can be, the education and employment opportunities that they will be likely likely to receive, and so on. The class one couldn't have helped being born into has no place in determining the quality of life for that person. Yet capitalism pushes that on us all the time and its advocates have the nerve of calling it a system of "equal opportunity".

The only logical conclusion is for the development of a classless, Communist society with international socialism as its interim state. Today, the capitalist has done a good job of socializing labour to the point that it is fully possible, yet the means of labour continue to be monopolized by them. Communists believe that anything the outdated capitalist class could do in terms of production management, worker-elected councils can do tomorrow instead in a way that benefits themselves as the whole of society.

All power to the people.

So you only get stuff dependent on how much/ how hard you work? Wouldn't that be meritocratic distribution as opposed to actual communism where you automatically get as much as you are determined to need for your family situation and job and just work because you're expected to or will be jailed?

[Sense-A]

And nothing irritates me more than faggit American's who think Socialism and Communism are synonymous.

I've already distinguished the two. If you suspect confusion amongst corp members, why don't you clear it up for us?

[TheBoarzHeadBoy]

I think Americans do need to look at their own founding and realize that we started a successful civil war to win our independence because our major merchants were afraid of the hit in sales they would have to a British trade monopoly that would actually lower the prices and make sure the product was higher quality. Which was actually a good thing for everyone except the merchants (who were almost entirely tax dodging smugglers like John Hancock...), but they were wealthy and had education and spun it into "no taxation without representation" because included in the cheaper higher grade tea was a small tax.

The British realize that if you want to collect a tax harmlessly, you take a product everyone uses, establish a government chartered trade monopoly (British West India Company) on it, as a result lower the prices and increase the quality (so that no one could possibly complain) and stick a value added tax on the product that people never see and is still cheaper then it was before... And we went to war because we were getting a better deal, and they were finally getting a piece of the taxes we simply didn't pay to them despite the fact we were British citizens living in British controlled lands protected by British soldiers who had in fact recently fought a war exclusively on our behalf that the British only lost money from.

Honestly, we stoned their soldiers, rioted, and destroyed literal tons of tea because the major smugglers lied to the people and bribed them with free booze. So while the Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness sounds good, we had that under King George. And he was a legitimately insane Monarch, so I don't see why constitutional monarchy is so terrible. The King is just as dependent on the people as the people are the King.

[Sense-A]

Sense-A, the incentive exists the same as in pre-welfare capitalism. In communism if one does not work, one cannot reap the rewards. Ever heard of "From each according to his abilities, to each according to their need"?

If this is true, then even communism is creating classes of people. Because certainly some people have great abilities, and some people have practically no valuable skills to offer to society. Some people work hard, some people do the bare minimum. Some people are ambitious, some people are complacent. Some people show their employer respect, some secretly hate their employers. Some people are smart, some people are dumb as rocks.

That's because communism is not a welfare system - it can't be, for class exploitation does not exist for a dominating class to give the exploited pocket change. If you're able-bodied and refuse to work despite full employment opportunities (indiscriminate of ones class or race), you shouldn't expect anything back.

So essentially, one who does not work in a communist system is left out in the rain? I doubt that. My impression was that if you refused to work in a communist system, you should expect a visit from the authorities.

The difference is that in communism, class-discrimination can not exist - ones fathers wealth or poverty is no longer a determining factor in how successful one can be, the education and employment opportunities that they will be likely likely to receive, and so on. The class one couldn't have helped being born into has no place in determining the quality of life for that person. Yet capitalism pushes that on us all the time and its advocates have the nerve of calling it a system of "equal opportunity".

So in a communist system, when my father dies, the government seizes all his possessions? Wow, really fair. So much for trying to provide your children with a better life. The only thing I see unfair with our current system is that an irresponsible mother can fuck every guy around the block and have half a dozen children all supported by welfare checks and actually receive a larger welfare check based on her number of dependents, but a responsible mother would practice abstinence or else marry a man before she starts spreading her legs. Therefore, the irresponsible mother gets a fatter check while the responsible mother cannot breed as many people as the irresponsible one. So in effect, the stupid people breed more than the smart people.

The only logical conclusion is for the development of a classless, Communist society with international socialism as its interim state. Today, the capitalist has done a good job of socializing labour to the point that it is fully possible, yet the means of labour continue to be monopolized by them. Communists believe that anything the outdated capitalist class could do in terms of production management, worker-elected councils can do tomorrow instead in a way that benefits themselves as the whole of society.

No matter what form of commerce or government that you establish, it is my belief that there will always be classes. So the idea of completely ridding the world of classes is a fantasy in my opinion. American capitalism has developed many anti-trust laws to prevent monopolies. But even these anti-trust laws create big behemoths such as Visa and Mastercard being examples of two corporations pretty much dominating the bank card industry.

There's your incentive. One's livelihood depends on their own contribution.

When you state that one's livelihood depends on one's contribution, that sounds a lot like capitalism. Because the more i contribute to my employer in education, ability, effort, reliability, the more I am effectively paid. Therefore capitalism works if this is your ideal.

[communist cunt]

edit

[rainbow]

Sense-A, i shouldn't have made that second post, but couldn't help myself because American's view on taxation is something which constantly irritates me.

I stand by my first post regardless, this thread is predicated on the notion that the free market always functions in it's pure theoretical form (when in fact it never does).

Rendering any discussion with you pointless.

If anyone here wants the theoretical advantages of free market economics explained to them, they should consult academic texts on the subject which are readily available.

Why the fuck would anyone want to read this information (sorry, the wikipedia version of this information) abridged and distorted by you?

And if you actually read anything of substance about the free market who'd understand why it is quixotic (the same applies to communist theory mostly, again highlighting why this thread is useless).

I am not an advocate for either system, but you're being disingenuous as you might say, by trying to aver the superiority of capitalism by highlighting the pros of capitalism in theory verses the cons of communism in practice.

[communist cunt]

Ah, some logic. So refreshing.

[Sense-A]

Fair enough. I insert too much of my own bias into this. I admit that much. But I'm not going to admit that I had to look up the word quixotic in the dictionary.



You know, Hayek is an economist who is against communism. Check out this video about economic policy. these guys put some real rappers to shame.