Did Wu-Tang "fall off" because they lost Mathematics?

**Sam the Seed** · 04-14-2024, 04:47 AM

I know most will say they never fell off and I'm not talking about DJ Mathematics. I just re-listened to Forever and its def their best album and probably Top 5 hip-hop albums ever IMO. But its their most conscious, militant and 5 Percenter-focused album. Just about every song exists to promote the topics of black men as godly leaders of humanity and devilish white men planning some kind of apocalyptic and genocidal events starting in the year 2000.

They do a few songs each album with that vibe and A Better Tomorrow is the closest to Forever in theme, but they've moved towards Buddhist peace and love vibes. I know thats RZA's vision and multiple members left the Nation of Gods and Earths for Islam. But it seems they all were 5 Percenter originally and that was the real glue to the group.

I know they went through a lot of drama in the late 90s with sophomore slump albums and ODB self-destructing, but it seemed like RZA planned to be a bigger entrepreneur than he became and moved away from mathematics because he was doing more business with white and Jewish people, so their message was toned down.

To me, ODB was the most 5 Percenter and was labeled crazy for it, which influenced other guys to give it up. I think that was the biggest loss in ODB's passing because he was the most bold and unapologetic about their beliefs and made it acceptable because he was a lovable clown at the same time.

I'm not a 5 Percenter but I admire a lot of their ideas which actually come from the Nation of Islam. I don't think the basic ideas are against Islam and still work for the black community and rap.

I see a bunch of hood guys who thought white people were devils and then met a bunch of cool white fans and feel embarrassed by their old ideas. But not all of it is bullshit like white men coming from cavemen and having atheist and Satanic beliefs for most of their history. A black alien scientist didn't create them and that idea does make the Wu look ignorant but its a sci-fi ghetto explanation of the truth revealed to blacks reading the Bible through the Qur'an. Might have to take that convo to the spiritual forum.

But if Wu was ever going to reunite because the world is turning demonic, anti-Allah and anti-black, its right now. They're almost 60 and aren't going to have the big influence they had 25 years ago, but the WTC from back then would be spazzing out and pumping music about the world events happening from the pandemic to Israel to just the demonic, cooning ass genre that rap has become.

**Sam the Seed** · 04-19-2024, 04:01 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjcjkRx6wHM

Damn, this interview is crazy. Its Poppa Wu in 2014. He talks mad shit about Raekwon and blames him for holding up albums because he and Ghost left the 5 Percenters to become Muslims. And he confirms Rae shot up Ghost's house before the group. Poppa Wu says he was the real coach of the group and Lyor Cohen made them get rid of Poppa Wu because of his views and aggression. I believe him. They've never been the same after Forever.

But whats most interesting is his origin story of the Wu Tang Clan is a lot better and more believable than that bullshit TV show. He says Brooklyn Zu was RZA's protection while he made beats. And the different hustlers and gang members would rap for RZA then Poppa Wu would teach them Mathematics. RZA then would play other artists for other artists and pitch the group to them, probably getting them friendly through Mathematics. Apparently Method Man was addicted to something and that explains why he was like the 2nd most gritty and weird member back then.

**David Daniel Davis** · 04-21-2024, 08:04 AM

Always figured that the television show was dressed up for television and we never got the true details of every thing that went on..

**SL33** · 04-21-2024, 12:59 PM

How could Lyor Cohen influence Wu in the first place?

Can someone clarify?

**Sam the Seed** · 04-22-2024, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by SL33

How could Lyor Cohen influence Wu in the first place?

Can someone clarify?

Good question. I know RZA was shopping Wu Tang to Def Jam and other labels before they settled with Loud because of the freedom to do solo deals. But Meth and Ghost got signed to Def Jam eventually. Cohen is a powerful snake with arms everywhere in hip-hop, same way Diddy knows the Clan very well without them ever being Bad Boy.

**Sam the Seed** · 04-22-2024, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by David Daniel Davis

Always figured that the television show was dressed up for television and we never got the true details of every thing that went on..

No doubt. Deck and U-God have both said the show is only partly accurate. I think members are contracted not to denounce it tho.

**Sam the Seed** · 05-29-2024, 11:13 PM

https://youtu.be/akF02lv47co?si=FGLGtzLsqMsMaWb-

Buckshot just dropped a phenomenal interview explaining Mathematics and takes a shot at Popa Wu and Wu-Tang for never preaching it correctly.

WTC's 5 Percenter teachings is what really attracted me to them more than the kung fu or grimy swag. But the more I learned about it, the more obvious it became how un-Islamic it is. Buckshot explains how 5 Percenters were just Nation of Islam Muslims teaching the same "lessons" in a simpler, numeric form to young street kids. I've heard Lord Jamar give a way more dumbed down and wrong explanation of that, saying it was the same lessons minus the Islam for real street niggas. That never made any sense to me and its because he's totally wrong.

Brand Nubian and Wu Tang too really don't promote Islam at all, but borrow random phrases basically to excuse nigga shit they do. ODB was the biggest victim of that, I hate to say because he's my favorite. Can't speak for all of them, but you know which ones. Raekwon to me took it the most seriously by evolving to become a true Muslim. Ghost too, even tho I doubt he takes it seriously at all.

RZA most of all will ramble off Popa Wu-style nonsense about knowledge and being God but in the Wu-Manual says he's not a Muslim or Buddhist. I'm telling y'all he's a Kabbalist like every other millionaire in entertainment. Kabbalah is basically the same thing, saying everyone is God, but putting Jews first. Thats what inspired the NOI's own racist version of Islam. Freemasonry = Gentile Kabbalism and NOI was born out of Freemasonry.

BTW, I don't support the NOI but the Divine Lessons or whatever that the Mathematics is based on is actually taken from real Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqeen

Its funny pretentious-ass RZA rejects Islam and Buddhism after making a fortune pretending to be into them, because Mathematics comes from both

"If you gon' spread Mathematics, spread it RIGHT!"

**Hollow Dartz** · 05-29-2024, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Sam the Seed

https://youtu.be/akF02lv47co?si=FGLGtzLsqMsMaWb-

Buckshot just dropped a phenomenal interview explaining Mathematics and takes a shot at Popa Wu and Wu-Tang for never preaching it correctly.

WTC's 5 Percenter teachings is what really attracted me to them more than the kung fu or grimy swag. But the more I learned about it, the more obvious it became how un-Islamic it is. Buckshot explains how 5 Percenters were just Nation of Islam Muslims teaching the same "lessons" in a simpler, numeric form to young street kids. I've heard Lord Jamar give a way more dumbed down and wrong explanation of that, saying it was the same lessons minus the Islam for real street niggas. That never made any sense to me and its because he's totally wrong.

Brand Nubian and Wu Tang too really don't promote Islam at all, but borrow random phrases basically to excuse nigga shit they do. ODB was the biggest victim of that, I hate to say because he's my favorite. Can't speak for all of them, but you know which ones. Raekwon to me took it the most seriously by evolving to become a true Muslim. Ghost too, even tho I doubt he takes it seriously at all.

RZA most of all will ramble off Popa Wu-style nonsense about knowledge and being God but in the Wu-Manual says he's not a Muslim or Buddhist. I'm telling y'all he's a Kabbalist like every other millionaire in entertainment. Kabbalah is basically the same thing, saying everyone is God, but putting Jews first. Thats what inspired the NOI's own racist version of Islam. Freemasonry = Gentile Kabbalism and NOI was born out of Freemasonry.

BTW, I don't support the NOI but the Divine Lessons or whatever that the Mathematics is based on is actually taken from real Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqeen

Its funny pretentious-ass RZA rejects Islam and Buddhism after making a fortune pretending to be into them, because Mathematics comes from both

"If you gon' spread Mathematics, spread it RIGHT!"

I'm going to say this very respectfully. You don't know what you're talking about and should do more research. and the 5% aren't Musilms.

**Sam the Seed** · 05-30-2024, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hollow Dartz

I'm going to say this very respectfully. You don't know what you're talking about and should do more research. and the 5% aren't Musilms.

And respectfully, shut the Hell up. If you can read, I said 5 Percenters aren't Muslims and NOI isn't true Islam. But originally 5 Percenters were trainees for the NOI. Everything in 5% basic teachings comes from the NOI, including the "5 Percent" concept. Supreme Mathematics is NOI Islam for kids to make them become NOI Muslims.

"Do more research" I'm begging you to debate me on Islam, the NOI & how fake 5 Percenters ("Jive Five" "5 Pretenders")differ. Watch the clip before responding emotionally.

**soob** · Yesterday, 05:54 AM

Bro you dont know what you're tlaking about. You jsut repeat some basic bullshit you learnt from Wikipedia. Five Percenters are just racist ass people who were once popular in the 90s.

**Sam the Seed** · Yesterday, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by soob

Bro you dont know what you're tlaking about. You jsut repeat some basic bullshit you learnt from Wikipedia. Five Percenters are just racist ass people who were once popular in the 90s.

You're an idiot, my guy. And just said some shit off of Wikipedia. Talk about shit in Poland. Mad because I exposed your culture vulture Zionism in another thread.

**Goldenchild** · Today, 12:59 AM

It is true that hip-hop was better when most rappers were 5% (1987-1997). That was the golden age of both hip-hop and the 5% in rap. Then the music changed obviously and the 5% no longer have much influence, except Jay Electronica (he's more NOI) and some other dudes. Supposedly Carmelo Anthony became 5% not too long ago. I have to give the 5% credit for bringing some intelligence to hip-hop and producing Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Wu, etc. That's no small achievement.

Anyway, this is bigger than just Wu Tang. A lot of rappers fell off for various reasons. Ghost and Rae converted to Islam by the time they recorded Supreme Clientele, Fishscale, and Cuban Linx 2, so I don't think leaving the 5% changed much as far as talent.