Cilvaringz & U-God

[Mythrandir]

The Bronze Tape was quite possibly the best production we've ever heard from Bronze... I stay bumping that on repeat


In a just world, before it all burns down and we're all dead, the devoted diehard Wu-Tang fans would get a Bronze-produced LP of the entire Clan. It's madness that this dude keeps producing albums that are front-to-back bangers, the whole WTC knows who he is and what he brings, and they still haven't tapped him to produce an album yet.

Same with Ringz, although the Ringz-produced WTC album did happen, but nobody gets to hear it besides Shkreli and the Feds.


For real tho, before all is said and done, the Clan needs a heavy dose of Bronze & Ringz production to revitalize the SOUND. They've successfully revitalized the brand, it seems Wu brand has been on fire the last couple years. The SOUND has been mediocre though. The solution to that is so obvious, it's frustrating to think it might never happen

Exactly that!
As much as I admire Raekwon's skills, I do feel that he is a hypocrite and rabble-rouser. I think Rza has had many a sleepless night trying to figure out how to appease fatty.
Rae and Uey notoriously and publicly shit on Rza for his current sound and not making beats "hard enough" - yet Rae is most likely the one to suggest DJ Khaled for beats.
If Rae feels that clan albums need harder beats - he sure knows who the fuck Bronze; 4th and True are. But no he chooses instead to lambast their aesthetic brilliance as "dark funeral music", and suggest commercial wack wank jobs like Khaled and Pharrell. Lardy hypocrite.
Don't publicly air out Rza for not making hard music when you yourself are churning out soft commercial fecal matter on your solo joints.
Humble your self and seek the Truest, bronze man, or disciple. Butter Knives was great yet not even close to Bronze's best. Masta Killa knows what time it is.... put him in charge of beat selection (I shall allow Selling my Soul as an abstraction).

[JZA/Jordon]

The clan needs to suit their style to what the new young fans want: 36 Chambers sound. Look at the crowd at all of their shows. all young heads like we were back in the 90s. There's still a market for that

[Sense-A]

Hey Cilvaringz,

Is there a thread on here where you talk about your production techniques?

I'm interested in what gear you're using. Sampler. Sequencer. Your favorite DAW. That kind of stuff, if you're willing to share. You learned from the best (Rza). Thanks.

[num2son]

People go to Bronze because they know what they are getting - Pure organic quality. He prefers to helm complete projects too, because he has nothing but fire in abundance.

Totally Agree.

[David Daniel Davis]

For real. I would rather the Wu Elements do full projects outside of the Killah Bee hive than not get anything from them at all because their own people barely use them.

[Mythrandir]

For real. I would rather the Wu Elements do full projects outside of the Killah Bee hive than not get anything from them at all because their own people barely use them.

True indeed!
KRS and True is a case in point.
U-God is whining about not having Rza's production for his solo joint... dude did you not hear yourself on Heaterz and Dats Gangsta??? Why not just replace the wank trash that Rza laced you with for that Redemption album, with more True Master goodness. Had he done that his album would have been considered a classic debut.
Same with Deck. Sounded legendary on Heaterz and Rec Room. Why not think to yourself, that was nothing but magic, I need to have True lace my whole joint. Uncontrolled Substance would have been an instant classic rather than an ok-decent album that it is.
I contend that from 1999 onwards, Rza was not needed as a producer (other than clan albums). With the sheer quality that 4th and True were putting put during this time, Rza's change in musical direction would have not been as significant as it was if more of the generals had used the Elements for their projects.
Rza had minimal input production wise on T2 Judgement Day, yet this is barely felt because of the heat that True and 4th had on this. Why the fuck was Gza pissing about with Arabian Knight when he has a long-standing working relationship with True? Can you imagine how good Beneath the Surface could have been if True and 4th were on it?

[Buddah_MAC]

True indeed!
KRS and True is a case in point.
U-God is whining about not having Rza's production for his solo joint... dude did you not hear yourself on Heaterz and Dats Gangsta??? Why not just replace the wank trash that Rza laced you with for that Redemption album, with more True Master goodness. Had he done that his album would have been considered a classic debut.
Same with Deck. Sounded legendary on Heaterz and Rec Room. Why not think to yourself, that was nothing but magic, I need to have True lace my whole joint. Uncontrolled Substance would have been an instant classic rather than an ok-decent album that it is.
I contend that from 1999 onwards, Rza was not needed as a producer (other than clan albums). With the sheer quality that 4th and True were putting put during this time, Rza's change in musical direction would have not been as significant as it was if more of the generals had used the Elements for their projects.
Rza had minimal input production wise on T2 Judgement Day, yet this is barely felt because of the heat that True and 4th had on this. Why the fuck was Gza pissing about with Arabian Knight when he has a long-standing working relationship with True? Can you imagine how good Beneath the Surface could have been if True and 4th were on it?

RZA produced REC Room. Sample was from True's crates so RZA gave him the credit.

Tical 2000 needed more 4th (2 tracks) but RZA (4 tracks w/ the album version of Party Crashers), True (5 tracks) & the rest came through, though never was big on the Erick Sermon cuts or Break Ups.

GZA had just about as long-standing a relationship with Arabian Knight as 4th & True. Arabian Knight = Q-Base from Royal Fam. But agreed his production was weak compared to 4th & True.

[Cilvaringz]

You guys are missing one angle. Not all of True and 4th's beats are Wu-Renegades / Heaterz quality. Most producers, me included, will have more wack/average beats than absolute bangers. Like for instance my Mental Chamberz stuff on Spotify will never include beats that I know I can reach a higher potential with. Same as the work I reserved for OUATIS, I would consider that some of my best work. The same can be said for 4th and True. If given the oppertunity to work on a U-God or Deck album, they too might make those same considerations... "Nah Imma keep these for a Meth joint, or a Clan joint, cause the mechanicals are gonna be much higher, the royalties are gonna be higher, the flat fee", etc etc. So they might not be inclined enough to hand over that next Heaterz joint to someone they might feel will not maximise the full potential of it. So they end up sending the average beats. The artist then might not feel them as much and will eventually stop calling, or get pissed off that Meth DID get that banger shit, while he didn't. This is a scenario that happens. Then again, other scenarios are that those producers are left without placements for years on end sometimes and now just need a paycheck, but they've grown tired of hearing that incredible banger they made two years ago and have kind of forgotten about it, and have moved on to newer sounding beats while we as fans would prefer the ones they forgot about. That's another scenario I experienced myself with 4th in Steubenville when he was playing me incredible stuff that he didn't even know where he stashed them, what disk they were on, where he got the samples from so he couldn't even remake them, etc etc. And then there's the Clan scenario where RZA will decide pretty much what ends up on the album. And the more RZA productions on there, the more mechanicals flow RZA's way, and that's an incentive that sometimes might play, not saying it does cause I was never part of those decision moments, but it does happen.

U-God, Deck and Killa should've gotten their due, their one RZA produced album. And I believe the Deck album had started, and that disappeared in the second flood. But as ferocious and maybe Top 2 emcees in the Clan Deck was on Clan albums, he might not have been "Bomb Atomically" enough when holding an entire song down. You can't expect "Bomb Atomically" level verses all over all the songs. Sometimes emcees are much better in group format than they are solo. Again, not to say that's a fact with the aforementioned three, but I can imagine labels might've felt that, or might've felt that the commercial appeal wasn't as strong as the other 5, and therefore maybe there wasn't a real oppertunity to capatalize on around that time leaving RZA/Divine less inspired or motivated to get those projects on the roll with RZA producing them in full. Other oppertunities might've been flowing RZA's way with way more money or commercial potential. Not fair to the emcees, not fair to the fans, but at this time business has overtaken the raw recording mentality of the early 90s where nothing counted more than just making bangers, one for all, all for one.

My personal favorite for much of the 90s was actually U-God. Loved the voice, loved the compact rap style he rapped with, and was looking forward to Warriors, which we were told was the name of his solo album to come back then. But alas, that didn't happen and I can see why U-God would feel salty about it. And then seeing Killarmy and Sunz Of Man release two, three albums and go gold. That's gotta piss you off. Eventhough 4th handled the bulk of those albums and didn't really need RZA but for a beat or 2. But U-God needed RZA in full. So I don't think his saltiness is weird. What I don't like is that resentment being aired out publically and in a very "you're to blame" kind of way. I never liked the public airing of their feuds, that's what fucking tainted it all for me and made me lose respect for that shit. That's why I never publically said shit back to them neither when they went at me. But U-God started that shit. I was with RZA when U-God called him a slave owner on Hot97. That was a black day and I don't think things were ever the same again after that. And for the record, with me, U-God was mostly an asshole, so I'm not trying to stand up for the dude.

But 4th got that shit, well, had it somewhere and I don't think it'll ever surface. And not enough folks care anymore neither. Not commercially enough. And don't expect 4th to be able to make you another Soldiers Of Darkness like that. He's moved on to a much cleaner sound. Sold the old equipment last I heard to stay afloat. The True Master beat tape that's out there, it's just ok, nothing OMG. The KRS One album was cool. It's wasn't Slang Editorial cool, it wasn't Heaterz, it was alright. Wu-Tang's strength was in their albums. Not the individual songs, but how all those songs made the album experience incredible. I said this before, Wisdom Body's beat is nowhere near as dope as Wu-Gambinos, but they're on the same album and they work together magically. The selection of the beats, the arrangement, the skits in between, the vibe in the 90s, the fantasized picture of them all together in a dusty basement, all those elements psychologically embodied your golden era Wu-Tang experience. You're never getting that again. Not knowing what you know now and where they are in their lives. All you can hope for now is that suprisingly sounding ok track from the Clan. When is the last time you heard a Clan track that made you feel like the first time you heard Wu-Tang Forever? It was probably around Supreme Clientele. After that... well, you know the story.

[Cilvaringz]

And ps. yeah some of them simply got a bad fucking ear for beats! They could call me, but there's too much pride in the way, and they could call Bronze but hey... as they (Deck & U-God) said to me: "I just came back from the club and these kids aint vibing to the shit you making. Your shit sound like funeral music".

Badabing Badaboom

[']

[Mythrandir]

You guys are missing one angle. Not all of True and 4th's beats are Wu-Renegades / Heaterz quality. Most producers, me included, will have more wack/average beats than absolute bangers. Like for instance my Mental Chamberz stuff on Spotify will never include beats that I know I can reach a higher potential with. Same as the work I reserved for OUATIS, I would consider that some of my best work. The same can be said for 4th and True. If given the oppertunity to work on a U-God or Deck album, they too might make those same considerations... "Nah Imma keep these for a Meth joint, or a Clan joint, cause the mechanicals are gonna be much higher, the royalties are gonna be higher, the flat fee", etc etc. So they might not be inclined enough to hand over that next Heaterz joint to someone they might feel will not maximise the full potential of it. So they end up sending the average beats. The artist then might not feel them as much and will eventually stop calling, or get pissed off that Meth DID get that banger shit, while he didn't. This is a scenario that happens. Then again, other scenarios are that those producers are left without placements for years on end sometimes and now just need a paycheck, but they've grown tired of hearing that incredible banger they made two years ago and have kind of forgotten about it, and have moved on to newer sounding beats while we as fans would prefer the ones they forgot about. That's another scenario I experienced myself with 4th in Steubenville when he was playing me incredible stuff that he didn't even know where he stashed them, what disk they were on, where he got the samples from so he couldn't even remake them, etc etc. And then there's the Clan scenario where RZA will decide pretty much what ends up on the album. And the more RZA productions on there, the more mechanicals flow RZA's way, and that's an incentive that sometimes might play, not saying it does cause I was never part of those decision moments, but it does happen.

U-God, Deck and Killa should've gotten their due, their one RZA produced album. And I believe the Deck album had started, and that disappeared in the second flood. But as ferocious and maybe Top 2 emcees in the Clan Deck was on Clan albums, he might not have been "Bomb Atomically" enough when holding an entire song down. You can't expect "Bomb Atomically" level verses all over all the songs. Sometimes emcees are much better in group format than they are solo. Again, not to say that's a fact with the aforementioned three, but I can imagine labels might've felt that, or might've felt that the commercial appeal wasn't as strong as the other 5, and therefore maybe there wasn't a real oppertunity to capatalize on around that time leaving RZA/Divine less inspired or motivated to get those projects on the roll with RZA producing them in full. Other oppertunities might've been flowing RZA's way with way more money or commercial potential. Not fair to the emcees, not fair to the fans, but at this time business has overtaken the raw recording mentality of the early 90s where nothing counted more than just making bangers, one for all, all for one.

My personal favorite for much of the 90s was actually U-God. Loved the voice, loved the compact rap style he rapped with, and was looking forward to Warriors, which we were told was the name of his solo album to come back then. But alas, that didn't happen and I can see why U-God would feel salty about it. And then seeing Killarmy and Sunz Of Man release two, three albums and go gold. That's gotta piss you off. Eventhough 4th handled the bulk of those albums and didn't really need RZA but for a beat or 2. But U-God needed RZA in full. So I don't think his saltiness is weird. What I don't like is that resentment being aired out publically and in a very "you're to blame" kind of way. I never liked the public airing of their feuds, that's what fucking tainted it all for me and made me lose respect for that shit. That's why I never publically said shit back to them neither when they went at me. But U-God started that shit. I was with RZA when U-God called him a slave owner on Hot97. That was a black day and I don't think things were ever the same again after that. And for the record, with me, U-God was mostly an asshole, so I'm not trying to stand up for the dude.

But 4th got that shit, well, had it somewhere and I don't think it'll ever surface. And not enough folks care anymore neither. Not commercially enough. And don't expect 4th to be able to make you another Soldiers Of Darkness like that. He's moved on to a much cleaner sound. Sold the old equipment last I heard to stay afloat. The True Master beat tape that's out there, it's just ok, nothing OMG. The KRS One album was cool. It's wasn't Slang Editorial cool, it wasn't Heaterz, it was alright. Wu-Tang's strength was in their albums. Not the individual songs, but how all those songs made the album experience incredible. I said this before, Wisdom Body's beat is nowhere near as dope as Wu-Gambinos, but they're on the same album and they work together magically. The selection of the beats, the arrangement, the skits in between, the vibe in the 90s, the fantasized picture of them all together in a dusty basement, all those elements psychologically embodied your golden era Wu-Tang experience. You're never getting that again. Not knowing what you know now and where they are in their lives. All you can hope for now is that suprisingly sounding ok track from the Clan. When is the last time you heard a Clan track that made you feel like the first time you heard Wu-Tang Forever? It was probably around Supreme Clientele. After that... well, you know the story.

All fair points to be sure.
However, us mere public civilians cannot judge a producer's work by what has not been published. As an insider, you have had an unfettered and privileged access to the inner sanctum of these chambers. From my humble (and limited) viewpoint as a consumer - I can only judge from what I hear (which is the published material that has seen the light of day, officially or not). From what I have heard, the body of work that 4th and True has - is nothing but consistent quality.
Granted, Heaterz / Wu-Renegades may be them at their peak (and I'm not doubting that you have heard meh beats from them) - but their oeuvre of published material is nothing short of stellar. I am also pretty sure that beats that appeared on Killa Bee material, must have been at one point submitted for clan albums. Slang Editorial is great as it is, but one can only imagine what the Clan would have done to this beat if it had appeared on Forever, or The W. I am not doubting that Rza had the bulk of the say on this, so a lot of beats submitted by 4th and True probably did go around the houses before ending up on the joints that they appeared on.
Even with True's more mediocre beats - the talent speaks for itself. For instance, I think his work on the Meta-Historical album with KRS, although sub-par (by True's lofty standards), still outshines the best beat by Gods Wrath or Snowgoons any day of the week (and I cite these two producing teams as a fan of theirs). No hate on any of these cats (JMT/Stoupe/Necro/Gods Wrath/Madlib etc...), but the levels are lucidly apparent, they are not on the same level as 4th or True - and never can be.
There was an interview with Rza titled "Confessions from a Mask", that appeared in UK's HHC magazine circa 1998-99. In that interview, Rza did talk about U-God's upcoming album Warriors, and he also mentioned that the only producers he valued at the time were 4th and True. He notably talked about 4th being his protégé (from Rza's perspective anyway), and that he (Rza) would be scaling back his producing, handing the bulk over to Wu-Elements (which included Goldfingaz at the time I believe).
I still remember that article to this day, as it got me so hyped when I first read it.

Now with hindsight, that article would just be a sad read indeed... it all went south (pun intended) after this time. Warriors never materialized - we got Mr Xcitement instead!!! Elements as a group was laughed-off by 4th, and their production became more sparse and by the Aughts - fizzled-out like Alka Seltzer in water. Such as shame.

[Cilvaringz]

True and 4th have definitely played a major part of the Wu success indeed. Couldn't imagine the saga without them. And I don't know whats worse, Mr.Xcitement or Ice Cream 2

[Mumm Ra]

I kid you not, some of the Clanners were actually contemplating getting Dj Khaled to produce on the last Wu album so they could keep up "with whats hot right now"... God honest truth. I bet you on day you'll be begging for a trashy fake wu album to save your soul!

100% honestly, probably wouldve been better than A Better Tomorrow lol. I'm not even familiar with his beats, but it couldn't be any worse

but I do get the point/ agree most of Wu-Tang has no ear for beats or know what Wu-fans want from Wu-Tang anymore. RZA included. He has even less of a clue than whoever wanted DJ Khaled

[josborne3680]

At least Deck has found something with the Czarface crew. I feel they have kept him relevant and I think their material is dope. I know a lot of heads on here don’t like it but they have to be doing something right since they now have 5 albums. Odd Deck says the funeral comment but then works with 7L who is not commercial at all. But hey good for the fans who like their material. Peace

[ShaDynasty]

100% honestly, probably wouldve been better than A Better Tomorrow lol. I'm not even familiar with his beats, but it couldn't be any worse

but I do get the point/ agree most of Wu-Tang has no ear for beats or know what Wu-fans want from Wu-Tang anymore. RZA included. He has even less of a clue than whoever wanted DJ Khaled

You're really wrong here. Khaled is an abomination.

Khaled doesn't even make beats, he just gets people like Migos and Chance The Rapper to rap over corny, generic pop and trap from other producers.

RZA's recent stuff at least isn't terrible music, its just that a lot of it isn't a good fit for Wu-Tang.